KVR Audio

neverenoughfunk · Post by **neverenoughfunk** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:28 pm

money was burning my pockets... i guess i had to spend... brought the Reason 10 upgrade for $99 ($30 off)... upgraded from Reason 8... seemed great at the time.... but THEN... Propellerhead always half bake their products... i.e. MIDI OUT, Audio, VST(s), etc... one would think with the implementation of VST(s) in Reason it would be able to handle multi-timbre instruments... but NO!!! this is what sucks about Reason... more than likely... WE are going to have to pay to use multi-timbre instruments in Reason... my question is WHY?

this is it for me with Propellerhead... they sell you half baked products knowing that you have to update for you to use Reason like you would in other products...

part of the Reason 10 upgrade should include something like the External Hardware device in Ableton Live... but Propellerhead wants you to pay a upgrade fee for that device...

SAD!!!

Bereket · Post by **Bereket** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:16 am

I had my utmost respect of Propellerhad up until I evaluate the company closely as if I'm like investigator. Propellerhead rather than listening to their customers they operate like hit and run business people while sustaining for a very long time. The way they do it is, always they give something that fanboys can talk about than what the customer needs. Your needs doesn't count up until Propllerheads needs it for purely business wise. Everybody was asking new instruments and and all those thing like 6 or 7 years ago and they came up with Rack extension. What makes it funny is they allow people to upgrade to 6 for free. It looks like honest gift from the company right? No no no that was cause they wanted you to be in Rack extension camp. But still they give Fan boys something to talk about. Yay they give us free upgrade Yadi Yadi Yada. All everybody will talk about free free free without watching the secret behind. Or may I say. Fan boys but in my POV I call them company representative will force you to see that way. I can't take you version after version you can see it for yourself. Now I see clearly when and why they fix the thing they fix. Why they add a feature and the reason they add.

9.5 brings VST and that VST was broken like hell and still it is. They just did it just to say hey we did it at least you can load VST in Reason now. You never did before don't your remember. Yes that was their fault but fan boys aka company representative will try to make it your fault. As if they did us a favour by adding VST in reality which was their fault not following the reality. Now they have the most clunky none user friendly slow DSP killer DAW on earth.

To add an insult for that they jumped right away to 10 and forget about 9.5 VST they started. Why not adding on version 10 the VST support if it is about giving the best service for your users? no no is about the chatter what they care. Like I said they give something the fan boys will talk about than what the user wants.

I wanted instruments 7 years ago not after you introduced VST. When you introduce VST you know you have opened up the door of unlimited choice why not improving what is there than giving another loop hole for fan boy to talk about. which is now every time Reason 9.5 user will complain about VST support, if they managed to fix it to say go and upgrade to 10. But the funny part you will not see fix anytime soon like Darker GUI and other user requests sill postponed the reason behind is their patent expiration.

When their Patent of Reason modularity is about to expire they will come the best possible of Reason you can imagine and will tell you that they are listening. Still too late but not for the sake of your request but it is about the competition implementing and expanding already expanded DAW. So, like I said it is not about what the customer wants. It is always about how much they can get out of their customers. You may have to look this and you will understand what I'm talking about now 9.5 is a forgotten version. viewtopic.php?p=6795142

sfxsound3 · Post by **sfxsound3** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:55 am

Hey, why do you get upset? Some guys/companies do it right, some do it wrong. Reason does it wrong - move on! It was crystal clear even back in 2005-2006 that they are after the money. You're 10+ years late to realize that?

pekbro · Post by **pekbro** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:33 am

Midi from VST is not supported "currently", but you can use multi-timbral VSTi up to 8 channels AFAIK.

*complex midi routing can be an issue, but generally you can get around that.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:53 am

Bereket wrote:angry rant

Are you somehow forced to use it? If you don't like what a company is doing or disagree with their values / policies, then vote with your wallet.

Have you ever tried to look at Reason's development from point of view of a person, for whom it is their only DAW & they're actually happy with what it does and appreciate its 'physical studio' metaphor? Addition of RE was great, because it opened the doors to 3rd party (i.e. more varied than Propellerhead would do) instruments & effects, that benefit from the closed environment with higher stability, better performance, tighter integration within Rack, etc. If the idea of working in-the-box appealed to you, that was a very good and smart move: both for the user AND financially for the company.

Addition of VST support happened late, but - again - if you look at it from the perspective of a happy user they could already do all they wanted with native & RE devices: there was enough instruments, effects, recording features, rewire option to get the job done. If that's your only DAW, you don't care whether the new instrument is in a format you can use in other DAWs, right? IMO, they really didn't had to add VST. It's not the plugins that make music and there's no guarantee that using Serum or Pro-Q2 will catapult you to Top10 charts. No, your music will maybe *sound* better, but it's still gonna be shit *music*. Sure, maybe the implementation of VST support could've been better, but then we don't know what sort of technical difficulties are there with interfacing VSTs in the rack. It's similar case with Live or Bitwig, where people complain they can open fewer VST instances than they can in Cubase, Logic or Studio One, without understanding the technical specifics of those DAWs - dictated by their workflow and intended use - that necessitate certain concessions with regards to buffering.

I however agree on 9.5 vs. 10, meaning that new instruments & samples should've been added in the former, while VST support in the latter. They must've worked on Europa, Grain, etc. long time ago already and maybe they were even done when 9.5 was released, while it wouldn't hurt to work on VST integration for 6 more months.

Regarding 'clunky' workflow, every DAW has its quirks, weirdness and deficiencies to which we simply get accustomed to over time and I really can't see anything in Reason that's a bigger caliber issue than what's missing (or wrong) in Live, Bitwig or Studio One. Like I'm sure a lot of people will defend Live's awkward method to sidechain VST plugins, because they got used to do it like that. Or Bitwig people trying to convince everyone that bounce-in-place is better than Live's freeze, etc. and so on... Not everyone who defends a DAW (and be extension its developer) is a blind fanboy: maybe he/she just got used to the particular quirks of the software, the workarounds became a 2nd nature and its other features (and sometimes also limitations!) help them to get their job done better and quicker. Have you ever considered that?

Lastly, instead of angry rants just go & vote with a wallet - I don't like what Ableton is doing with splitting content and automation modes in v10 and despite loving a lot of other things, I won't be upgrading and will sell my 9 Suite in due time.

mrj1nx · Post by **mrj1nx** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:00 pm

Usually when someone writes an angry rant is because they really like and care about the product. I also got severely burnt by Propellerhead and still get a foul taste in my mouth at the thought of reason now. I've moved on but it did cost me time and money...

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:46 pm

mrj1nx wrote:Usually when someone writes an angry rant is because they really like and care about the product. I also got severely burnt by Propellerhead and still get a foul taste in my mouth at the thought of reason now. I've moved on but it did cost me time and money...

Surely you had some great time - and hopefully tunes - out of it? Learned a lot? Isn't that worth the money you've spent?

I paid EUR450 for Live v9 Suite in January this year, learned how to use DAWs, MIDI, VSTs, synthesis and got 1.5 tunes out of it (moved to Bitwig 2 in July), etc. but now - as I'm disappointed with certain decisions for v10 beta - I'll be selling my license, probably recouping half of that if I'm lucky. But that still was EUR200-300 that gave me a lot of fun and knowledge. I am apparently not in the user base to which Ableton is catering, but so be it - I'm doing my best to change their mind participating in beta testing & voicing my concerns and proposing solutions, but in the end if v10 ends up being like it is I'll just leave it. I'm not gonna go around forums & FB complaining how they're an evil corporation and don't listen to their users. Because no corporation does. It's only that sometimes your needs and expectations align with their vision and target user base to which they cater to, and then - apparently - you become a blinded fanboy...

So my advice is to simply go out and look for a DAW of which you can become a fanboy and don't waste times and nerves on the rest.

ATN69 · Post by **ATN69** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:57 pm

If you want a DAW that is perfect for you, I guess you better learn some programming skills and make your own

There are no perfect DAWs and all of them have their good and bad sides. I recently got Reason and I plan to look into it from a DAW perspective. But the main reason I got it was because it's possible to load up the Reason rack in FL Studio and use all the instruments and effects from Reason.

elassi · Post by **elassi** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm

I'm not a Reason user (and never was) but I see a pattern here when reading the posts of you guys.

It was similar with Ableton Live when it used to be a unique concept, perfectly designed to do what the initial idea has been. Then, with growing user base, the demands also grew. To make a long story short: at the end of the day the people expected a fully fledged DAW though Live wasn't intended to be such thing in the beginning.

They tried to match and adress the wishes but failed seriously at first (in the eyes of the public) so that sorrows came up if the company would overcome the crisis.

Today, I must say, the unique concept is quite blurred compared to what it was in the beginning. Push helped, though, but they're not a solitaire player in the game anymore.

neverenoughfunk · Post by **neverenoughfunk** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:05 pm

ATN69 wrote:If you want a DAW that is perfect for you, I guess you better learn some programming skills and make your own There are no perfect DAWs and all of them have their good and bad sides. I recently got Reason and I plan to look into it from a DAW perspective. But the main reason I got it was because it's possible to load up the Reason rack in FL Studio and use all the instruments and effects from Reason.

personally, i am not looking for perfection... but if a DAW has VST capabilities why not have the capabilities to use multi-timbre instruments... for the records... Kontakt, Sampletank 3, Omnisphere, Halion/Halion Sonic, etc, etc, etc are VERY popular vst(s)... which begs the question... how many instances of these vst(s) can you running at once in Reason... during development of Reason 9.5 no one at Propellerhead realized this? or realized they could charge for this feature in the future...

that is the problem... not looking for perfection... but TIRED of HALF BAKED releases... i.e. i know TODAY if Reason is going to have multi-timbre capabilities i am going to have to pay for it... nested i.e.which leads to HALF BAKED releases...

festeringheap · Post by **festeringheap** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:40 pm

ATN69 wrote:If you want a DAW that is perfect for you, I guess you better learn some programming skills and make your own

neverenoughfunk wrote:personally, i am not looking for perfection... but if a DAW has VST capabilities why not have the capabilities to use multi-timbre instruments... for the records... Kontakt, Sampletank 3, Omnisphere, Halion/Halion Sonic, etc, etc, etc are VERY popular vst(s)... which begs the question... how many instances of these vst(s) can you running at once in Reason... during development of Reason 9.5 no one at Propellerhead realized this? or realized they could charge for this feature in the future...

that is the problem... not looking for perfection... but TIRED of HALF BAKED releases... i.e. i know TODAY if Reason is going to have multi-timbre capabilities i am going to have to pay for it... nested i.e.which leads to HALF BAKED releases...

I agree that a lot of stuff that comes from Prop Inc. these days is half-baked. And while I agree with you that VST implementation could be WAY better with what you said and also include MIDI VST implementation and CPU optimization and and etc... ...what you should remember is that the VST upgrade was free earlier this year. And you had half a year to demo the 9.5 version and the 10 version (which you must realize includes only sound content and no improvements otherwise)

I'm still pre-VST Reason. I'd love to give Propellerhead some upgrade money for a nicely optimized program with proper VST implementation, but that'll have to wait until they can actually pull it off.

neverenoughfunk · Post by **neverenoughfunk** » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:26 pm

festeringheap wrote:
ATN69 wrote:If you want a DAW that is perfect for you, I guess you better learn some programming skills and make your own

neverenoughfunk wrote:personally, i am not looking for perfection... but if a DAW has VST capabilities why not have the capabilities to use multi-timbre instruments... for the records... Kontakt, Sampletank 3, Omnisphere, Halion/Halion Sonic, etc, etc, etc are VERY popular vst(s)... which begs the question... how many instances of these vst(s) can you running at once in Reason... during development of Reason 9.5 no one at Propellerhead realized this? or realized they could charge for this feature in the future...

that is the problem... not looking for perfection... but TIRED of HALF BAKED releases... i.e. i know TODAY if Reason is going to have multi-timbre capabilities i am going to have to pay for it... nested i.e.which leads to HALF BAKED releases...
I agree that a lot of stuff that comes from Prop Inc. these days is half-baked. And while I agree with you that VST implementation could be WAY better with what you said and also include MIDI VST implementation and CPU optimization and and etc... ...what you should remember is that the VST upgrade was free earlier this year. And you had half a year to demo the 9.5 version and the 10 version (which you must realize includes only sound content and no improvements otherwise)

I'm still pre-VST Reason. I'd love to give Propellerhead some upgrade money for a nicely optimized program with proper VST implementation, but that'll have to wait until they can actually pull it off.

you are 110% correct... i should have tested Reason 10 first... i updated from Reason 8 and for $99 it was a impulse buy...

but with the CPU issues combined with multi-timbre instruments and if 1 + 1 = 2... Reason should be able to handle multi-timbre instruments TODAY... and that is what makes them sooooooooooo SAD!!! their next block buster feature/release is going to be the ability to use multi-timbre instrument... at a $129 cost...

Propellerhead and Reason... always something else...