I'm using Logic 5.5 (PC). Playing soft-synths via MIDI works fine, but I don't succeed in sending MIDI data to an effect plugin. Any idea what might be wrong?
MIDI data gets into sequencer input and shows up in the MIDI monitor of the transport window. I have selected the correct audio track in the arrange window and put my effect plugin into the corresponding audio object insert. MIDI data never arrives in the plugin, not even if I connect the physical input directly to the audio object with a cable. As I said: I can play software synths, I can change the audio object's volume using CC7, but I cannot send MIDI events to non-synth plugins (in my case a pitch corrector). What am I doing wrong?
Logic: MIDI data does not reach plugin
-
- KVRAF
- 2696 posts since 3 Aug, 2003 from Narnia
There's an environment trick for this. Logic handles VST parameters with its own set of "Faders", numbered from 1, to however many parameters your VST has.
In the environment, you need to patch a "Transformer" object between the "Physical Input" and the "Audio Object" that contains the VST in question.
Then you need to set up the transformer to change incoming MIDI data from your controller to the correct "Logic Fader Number" for the VST.
To find out what that number is; record a short sequence and move the fader. Look in the "Event List" where you will see what type of event it is and what number it has.
Enter that data into the Transformer's output, and your MIDI controller number into the input. And abracadabra...! It should work.
If you want realtime control of more than one VSTI parameter, you just copy the transformer and enter the new details.
I hope I haven't missed anything out, but in case I have, have a look in the online help file for "VST Automation" it mentions it there.
There's a good Yahoo group for Logic users here...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users/
And there's more stuff here...
http://gate.tenhauser.com/
And finally, here's one for all Logic users...
http://logicfaq.omega-art.com/
In the environment, you need to patch a "Transformer" object between the "Physical Input" and the "Audio Object" that contains the VST in question.
Then you need to set up the transformer to change incoming MIDI data from your controller to the correct "Logic Fader Number" for the VST.
To find out what that number is; record a short sequence and move the fader. Look in the "Event List" where you will see what type of event it is and what number it has.
Enter that data into the Transformer's output, and your MIDI controller number into the input. And abracadabra...! It should work.
If you want realtime control of more than one VSTI parameter, you just copy the transformer and enter the new details.
I hope I haven't missed anything out, but in case I have, have a look in the online help file for "VST Automation" it mentions it there.
There's a good Yahoo group for Logic users here...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/logic-users/
And there's more stuff here...
http://gate.tenhauser.com/
And finally, here's one for all Logic users...
http://logicfaq.omega-art.com/
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 37 posts since 27 Jun, 2004 from Berlin, Germany
Thanks for this detailed answer! The links are awesome, Andy! The presented method allows you to convert controllers into fader events (VST automation parameters). However, I am looking for a method to send MIDI note events to the plugin. That cannot be done with this approach.
I ran a few experiments and I found out that in Logic, Audio Track objects do NOT route MIDI notes to the inserted plugins. Audio Instrument objects DO route MIDI notes to the inserted plugins (it doesn't matter whether these are synths or not), but with instrument objects you cannot playback recorded audio regions. Hence, it's not possible in Logic to feed a plugin with recorded Audio regions and MIDI notes at the same time
Why would we need that? Pitch correctors for example can be controlled by MIDI note events, and of course they need audio input. But in general, it would make sense if this were possible. I'm gonna try some more things with Aux objects and side-chaining...
I ran a few experiments and I found out that in Logic, Audio Track objects do NOT route MIDI notes to the inserted plugins. Audio Instrument objects DO route MIDI notes to the inserted plugins (it doesn't matter whether these are synths or not), but with instrument objects you cannot playback recorded audio regions. Hence, it's not possible in Logic to feed a plugin with recorded Audio regions and MIDI notes at the same time
Why would we need that? Pitch correctors for example can be controlled by MIDI note events, and of course they need audio input. But in general, it would make sense if this were possible. I'm gonna try some more things with Aux objects and side-chaining...
-
- KVRist
- 65 posts since 26 Sep, 2003 from Deep South, Finland
hi
some effects load as instruments in logic, you should be able to see a sidechain selector in those which do.
surprisingly, these accept midi as well
l.
some effects load as instruments in logic, you should be able to see a sidechain selector in those which do.
surprisingly, these accept midi as well
l.
-
- KVRAF
- 4749 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K
couldn't you use energyXT inside logic ?
travelboy wrote:I'm using Logic 5.5 (PC). Playing soft-synths via MIDI works fine, but I don't succeed in sending MIDI data to an effect plugin. Any idea what might be wrong?
MIDI data gets into sequencer input and shows up in the MIDI monitor of the transport window. I have selected the correct audio track in the arrange window and put my effect plugin into the corresponding audio object insert. MIDI data never arrives in the plugin, not even if I connect the physical input directly to the audio object with a cable. As I said: I can play software synths, I can change the audio object's volume using CC7, but I cannot send MIDI events to non-synth plugins (in my case a pitch corrector). What am I doing wrong?
-
- KVRAF
- 2696 posts since 3 Aug, 2003 from Narnia
Ahh... I get ya...travelboy wrote:I am looking for a method to send MIDI note events to the plugin. That cannot be done with this approach.
True...travelboy wrote: I ran a few experiments and I found out that in Logic, Audio Track objects do NOT route MIDI notes to the inserted plugins....
Mmm... Maybe it is...travelboy wrote: Audio Instrument objects DO route MIDI notes to the inserted plugins (it doesn't matter whether these are synths or not), but with instrument objects you cannot playback recorded audio regions. Hence, it's not possible in Logic to feed a plugin with recorded Audio regions and MIDI notes at the same time
...
Right now I'm at work and nowhere near my music PC, but I think this can be done with "Aux" objects and some creative use of "Channel Sends", plus some re-wiring of the environment.travelboy wrote: Why would we need that? Pitch correctors for example can be controlled by MIDI note events, and of course they need audio input. But in general, it would make sense if this were possible. I'm gonna try some more things with Aux objects and side-chaining...
Either way, this is an interesting conundrum.
Don't think I can concentrate on work today... You've got me thinking about environments now..
-
- KVRAF
- 2696 posts since 3 Aug, 2003 from Narnia
EUREKA...!
IT IS POSSIBLE...!
Here's how...
Go to the environment (Clicks and Ports) and create a new instrument, name it "Control" for now. In its parameter box, select "No Driver" and make sure the icon is checked.
Also create a new "Audio Object" and in the Parameter box for that object, select the Audio Track that contains the plugin you want to control.
Next, create a Transformer.
Now, cable the new instrument (Control) to the Transformer, and cable the Transformer to the Audio Object (Audio Track).
Open the Transformer by double clicking on it, and enter the details as outlined in my first post (these will depend on what you want to convert).
Then go to the Arrange window and select a track with the Control instrument you just created. Now record the control data on THAT track and that should do the trick.
Whats happening is the control track contains the MIDI automation data, and it's routed into the transformer which changes it into Fader data and sends it onto the plugin in the Audio Track. Because the Control track has No Driver, it will not send its data to any other MIDI device or virtual instrument.
I hope you're still reading this thread Travelboy.
Let me know if you have any problems with this.
IT IS POSSIBLE...!
Here's how...
Go to the environment (Clicks and Ports) and create a new instrument, name it "Control" for now. In its parameter box, select "No Driver" and make sure the icon is checked.
Also create a new "Audio Object" and in the Parameter box for that object, select the Audio Track that contains the plugin you want to control.
Next, create a Transformer.
Now, cable the new instrument (Control) to the Transformer, and cable the Transformer to the Audio Object (Audio Track).
Open the Transformer by double clicking on it, and enter the details as outlined in my first post (these will depend on what you want to convert).
Then go to the Arrange window and select a track with the Control instrument you just created. Now record the control data on THAT track and that should do the trick.
Whats happening is the control track contains the MIDI automation data, and it's routed into the transformer which changes it into Fader data and sends it onto the plugin in the Audio Track. Because the Control track has No Driver, it will not send its data to any other MIDI device or virtual instrument.
I hope you're still reading this thread Travelboy.
Let me know if you have any problems with this.
-
- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Regarding the mentioned approach (in creating a new instrument and cabling it to the audio instrument of choice) you will stumble over one of the most annoying drawbacks to be found in Logic: Parameter control via MIDI that is. True for virtual instruments, almost amateurish when it comes to effect plugins - especially valid for Emagic very own pluigins, which sound outstanding (at least the synths) but have a MIDI implementation you'd slap every Synth Edit creator for big time if he/she did it that lousy.
Thing is, plugin parameters are assigned to MIDI controllers somewhat "dynamically".
Rule of thumb here: each plugin slot is only using 16 control numbers if the slot right next is used as well, starting at CC 64.
Now, the first thing is, you can't find out the appropriate CC numbers unless you switch the plugin to control mode view and count from top to bottom.
First visible parameter is responding to CC 64 (another stupid thing as this one is reserved/hardwired ro sustain), next one to CC65 and so one
And, as if this wasn't lousy enough, if you now insert another plugin, ONLY the first 16 parameters will be MIDI controllable at all.
A way to get things done a bit faster you could record the plugin parameter in question onto the desired track, then open the event list and have a look which parameter was created. Since Logic 5 some new events called "Fader events" were introduced. Unfortunately you can't read them out on the plugin itself (not even in control mode), but the event list will show them fine. After that you'd need a transformer to transform the incoming MIDI signal to the appropriate fader event.
Forget about all GM conventioons too, when it comes to virtual instruments in Logic. While it's just some sort of convention that cutoff and resonance of a given synth might be controlled via CCs 71 and 74, be assured that in 99% of all cases it won't be like that in Logic.
Seriously, I really can't believe that the "top muisic production package" (or whatever it says) is that much "un-up-to-date".
Don't get me wrong, I'm a true Logic afficionado, I love it for it's elegance in terms of arrangement, topol, screen, editor and whatever handling - but MIDI implementation is ancient, to say the least.
However, whenever you want to control a plugin via MIDI you can do these things:
- Forget about it and better automate the parameters on the plugin UI, using the "new" track automation (which is another lousy and badly thought out thing I could write a book about).
- Use various environment workarounds (btw, I'd create any new instruments and transformers straight on the audio mixer layer and leave the physical input cabling intact, unless you want everything to be affected). Consider the above mentioned "fader event" thing to be the best bet here.
- Hope that the plugin shows up as an instrument as well (quite some do). In that case it will most likely offer a sidechain option. In the sidechain dropdown you could now select the track you want to be effected (that's for instance the way you work with vocoders in Logic). Again not satisfying too much, as you need two tracks for one sound.
Anyways, there's workarounds for almost everything in Logic, but it's nothing else but that: workarounds. And pretty much lousy they are as well...
Thing is, plugin parameters are assigned to MIDI controllers somewhat "dynamically".
Rule of thumb here: each plugin slot is only using 16 control numbers if the slot right next is used as well, starting at CC 64.
Now, the first thing is, you can't find out the appropriate CC numbers unless you switch the plugin to control mode view and count from top to bottom.
First visible parameter is responding to CC 64 (another stupid thing as this one is reserved/hardwired ro sustain), next one to CC65 and so one
And, as if this wasn't lousy enough, if you now insert another plugin, ONLY the first 16 parameters will be MIDI controllable at all.
A way to get things done a bit faster you could record the plugin parameter in question onto the desired track, then open the event list and have a look which parameter was created. Since Logic 5 some new events called "Fader events" were introduced. Unfortunately you can't read them out on the plugin itself (not even in control mode), but the event list will show them fine. After that you'd need a transformer to transform the incoming MIDI signal to the appropriate fader event.
Forget about all GM conventioons too, when it comes to virtual instruments in Logic. While it's just some sort of convention that cutoff and resonance of a given synth might be controlled via CCs 71 and 74, be assured that in 99% of all cases it won't be like that in Logic.
Seriously, I really can't believe that the "top muisic production package" (or whatever it says) is that much "un-up-to-date".
Don't get me wrong, I'm a true Logic afficionado, I love it for it's elegance in terms of arrangement, topol, screen, editor and whatever handling - but MIDI implementation is ancient, to say the least.
However, whenever you want to control a plugin via MIDI you can do these things:
- Forget about it and better automate the parameters on the plugin UI, using the "new" track automation (which is another lousy and badly thought out thing I could write a book about).
- Use various environment workarounds (btw, I'd create any new instruments and transformers straight on the audio mixer layer and leave the physical input cabling intact, unless you want everything to be affected). Consider the above mentioned "fader event" thing to be the best bet here.
- Hope that the plugin shows up as an instrument as well (quite some do). In that case it will most likely offer a sidechain option. In the sidechain dropdown you could now select the track you want to be effected (that's for instance the way you work with vocoders in Logic). Again not satisfying too much, as you need two tracks for one sound.
Anyways, there's workarounds for almost everything in Logic, but it's nothing else but that: workarounds. And pretty much lousy they are as well...
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Oh, btw, before I forget to mention this:
In case you are using a plugin offering MIDI learn, do yourself a favour and assign some of the "unused" CCs to control it (CCs 11 - 27 are a safe bet) rather than using anything above 63.
To check out "free" CCs:
Create a part on the track of choice, press Shift + F3 - that will trigger the hyperdraw dialog box. Clickhold onto the control number entry there and you'll see a list of used/unused CCs.
In case you are using a plugin offering MIDI learn, do yourself a favour and assign some of the "unused" CCs to control it (CCs 11 - 27 are a safe bet) rather than using anything above 63.
To check out "free" CCs:
Create a part on the track of choice, press Shift + F3 - that will trigger the hyperdraw dialog box. Clickhold onto the control number entry there and you'll see a list of used/unused CCs.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRAF
- 2696 posts since 3 Aug, 2003 from Narnia
Hi Sascha, controllers starting at 64 in Logic is the default, but it can be changed... Somewhere.
Can't remember where though, I'm at work at the moment.
Can't remember where though, I'm at work at the moment.
-
- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
I just had a look, couldn't find it anywhere.andywanders wrote:Hi Sascha, controllers starting at 64 in Logic is the default, but it can be changed... Somewhere.
Can't remember where though, I'm at work at the moment.
Please post once you know where to find this setting.
Thanks
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
-
- KVRist
- 85 posts since 2 Nov, 2003
Take a look in song settings>old songs. There are 2 options . . . "midi controllers as standard midi files" or "midi controllers 65-127 (version 4 behavior)"
hope this helps,
Jon
hope this helps,
Jon
-
- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
Oh yes - I know THAT one, Jon (and of course it's activated over here), but what was changed was the introduction of the aforementioned fader events. CC routing itself didn't get much better - sure, once an instrument comes with its own set of CC assignments things will work now, but that isn't true for Emagics own intruments (which offer no MIDI implementation, so using an external controller as some sort of programmer still is a no go) and it still doesn't offer anything close to proper MIDI controlling of FX plugins.
In short: If an FX plugin offers MIDI note controlling (which quite some do, most popular example: Vocoders, but there's also some filters and what not) you're still lost unless the plugin appears as an instrument with sidechain as well (which vocoders usually do, others however don't).
In short: If an FX plugin offers MIDI note controlling (which quite some do, most popular example: Vocoders, but there's also some filters and what not) you're still lost unless the plugin appears as an instrument with sidechain as well (which vocoders usually do, others however don't).
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.