A dream hardware controller for soft synths?

[pinki]

Guy,

I also saw that you are experimenting with Lemur, have you heard about these: https://www.pepperdecks.com/products/28-tunagear

Ha ha I love human inventiveness! Just amazing.

I am a long time Jazz Mutant Lemur user and it still gets used everyday. It's the closest I got to intuitive control. On a Mac it is indeed turn on and use, sad to hear that's not the case on Windows, Guy.

I am intrigued by those stick on knobs though! It would be possible on a Lemur to have a row of them across the top of the screen that respond to a template that has the soft knobs in exactly the same position.

[jancivil]

The thing I CAN afford appears to be optimized for an iPhone and needs firmware revision to work right on a real computer. ROLI lightpad.

I'm not so interested in the Lightpad, but the Roli Rise is a game-changer for me

Of course I'd prefer that but I can't pay for that, I'd need credit and I've never wanted it.
I'd like to have the Continuum but it's 5 figures. I don't know if they're going to go MPE or not, so ROLI or Linnstrument. I'm more impressed with Linn, frankly. I did my due diligence with the Lightpad and it is not going to work for me.

[c0nsilience]

I know this is a relatively old thread, but check this out:

https://touchinnovations.com

[aMUSEd]

If you mean the Master you've got to hover your mouse over a control in order to control it with the big knob - which seems too dependent on the mouse and with most mice you could use the wheel to do what the knob does

[VariKusBrainZ]

I know this is a relatively old thread, but check this out:

https://touchinnovations.com

The software developer now sells the software independently

https://hi.computer/chameleon/

Only $9.99

[VariKusBrainZ]

Guy,

I also saw that you are experimenting with Lemur, have you heard about these: https://www.pepperdecks.com/products/28-tunagear

Ha ha I love human inventiveness! Just amazing.

I am a long time Jazz Mutant Lemur user and it still gets used everyday. It's the closest I got to intuitive control. On a Mac it is indeed turn on and use, sad to hear that's not the case on Windows, Guy.

I am intrigued by those stick on knobs though! It would be possible on a Lemur to have a row of them across the top of the screen that respond to a template that has the soft knobs in exactly the same position.

I bought these through the Kickstarter campaign a couple of years ago.
Tried them on an iPhone, Lenovo android tablet and HannG touchscreen.

Didn't work on any of them.

Avoid unless you can confirm before buying that they work with your device

[Daisuk]

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I've been thinking about this a lot too, and think something like the Ableton Push is the closest at the moment (at least for Ableton Live users), but it's not perfect. The CTRL-X controller posted looks quite interesting, something along those lines (but preferably with more knobs and I could personally live with a smaller screen), where you combine a screen with knobs, where you can save templates based on whatever VST you're using would be great.

There's also this, but yeah, I don't think it'll work well without some sort of screen accompaniment.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the- ... controller (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-ultimate-vst-synthesizer-midi-controller)#/

[acYm]

the big issue with Push is how there's no programmable buttons, otherwise, with scripts we'd be able to re-make all the Kore templates inside Live and it would be ideal. as it is, pretty much as worthless as Komplete Kontrol.

[chk071]

Still waiting for that Sonic Academy thingie. At least, out of interest, i don't know if i would really buy it. Largely depends on the price.

[Ploki]

i hate touch interfaces

that's why i'm waiting that these get back in stock:
https://www.nobcontrol.com

select with a hovering mouse, twist.

[Alfonx]

This is another solution:
http://sound-force.nl/?page_id=2775
.... a dedicated controller for u-he repro1 (and there is another one for repro5 ).
Or have a look at:
http://sound-force.nl/?page_id=2318

... but perhaps a real hardware synth could do the job (like the roland system 8 - like chk071 mentioned).

I would prefer endless encoder with visual feedback....
Conclusion: It is unbelievable in 2019 we have no ultimate vst synth-hardware controller on the market...

[sixbrix]

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at least Ableton Users can go for endless knobs with visual feedback for all of their plugins (not just Ableton Stock).

When Using Push (2 preferred? might work with Push 1 as well), you can use the isotonik Preditor 2 Mapping tool, to create custom maps for all your goto synth.
https://isotonikstudios.com/product/pre ... g-utility/ (https://isotonikstudios.com/product/preditor-2-control-surface-automapping-utility/)

I know it sounds like a pain the *ss to have the initial effort for every plugin, with 1-2 hours of concentrated work, I managed to get my goto Plugins (repro-1, repro-5, diva, serum, mini-v) mapped with a generic bank layout - like filter env is always bank 4, Modulation settings always bank 5 etc.
that way your sound design habits are the same whatever plugin is in use...
you can totally customize the banks (up to 64) if you wish.

via push 2, you get the endless encoders ( I hate the parameter jumps with my Sound Force SFC-1 Controller), and a visual feedback on the display!

[Alfonx]

When Using Push (2 preferred? might work with Push 1 as well), you can use the isotonik Preditor 2 Mapping tool, to create custom maps for all your goto synth.
https://isotonikstudios.com/product/pre ... g-utility/

Yeah, i read about this in the Ableton Forum. It’s very mighty but it should have standard configs for the most famous vsts. But controlling vsts is one thing-browsing presets is another thing-i am unsure how this is implemented-i think browsing was not the aim of preditor so browsing samples is what i wanted too.

via push 2, you get the endless encoders ( I hate the parameter jumps with my Sound Force SFC-1 Controller), and a visual feedback on the display!

Yes, I saw a few videos before but i was unsure to go this way. I like push but i admit i prefer using a keyboard with knobs instead of push knobs and fancy pads.

So i just bought a used Native Instruments Komplete S25. Now i have a real (but short ) keyboard with aftertouch, 8 knobs with own display showing me whats up... and i like to browse through all my presets (showing vendor, type of preset, ... on the 8 displays). It’s just fun to finally use real Hardware to browse the presets and parameters. And i can connect my roland tb3 directly via midi (i created a template to control cutoff,...). The bad news with KK is, i have to buy NKS-Packs for about 6 vsts to have them integrated in komplete kontrol (and i already bought preset packs to use them with push)..... Integration of Ableton Instruments is very limited/very poor, sadly.

Conclusion:
For controlling live instruments i am using my push 2 and for all my vsts i prefer the S25.

[rhearhino]

Over many years, the subject has come up of controllers for soft synths. Back in the day there have been some one-off curiosities for the MS20 or impOscar, but they were only built in small volumes. They looked great, but of course only controlled the one synth. Also they run into the problem of the hardware not keeping up with the software - you change a patch, but the hardware doesn't change with it. [...]

Yes, I've been asking for (and posting about) a decent softsynth controller for more than a decade, and still all we have is generic fader boxes, or generic controls on a MIDI keyboard and "mixer" layout controllers, with some dedicated software things like Push etc.

To be honest, I'm *amazed* this gap in the market still exists. Make something that looks good, works well for most software, controls the core 80% of all soft synths with some extra flexibility for configuring other things, and as long a it's not too expensive, who *wouldn't* want it. Have a range - desktop module, and a keyboard version or two.

[...] I'd love to have a controller that would automatically map its knobs to the plugin parameters in the most meaningful way when I switch, e.g. from Repro-1 to Razor and then to Absynth. But I hardly see this possible because there is no unified parameter layout across different plugins, even if we talk about typical osc/filter/envelopes design.

[...] So what it would need:

1.- Tons of controls, as the S8 shows you need lots of controls, not only to control most of any synth but also to repurpose some to particular parameters. maybe go for 100.

2.- A layout that looks like a synth, I think this is one of the main reasons generic controllers fail: they don't look as synths, they don't have the typical synths layout: oscillators, filters, envelopes, LFO's, mixer.

3.- Visual feedback for parameter values, this can be done with led rings, or how NI implemented in the Kontrol series ( a screen behind the controls). Utterly important for really get what you are doing, especially when loading presets.

4.- Since the number of LFO's, envelopes and oscillators can vary, develop a system which can "surf" through LFO1, LFO2, etc. I know I said tons of controls are needed, I think a couple of sets of controls for envelopes and LFO's would be a good start point, but many soft synths have 4-6 LFO's, so an intuitive system for controlling more than two would be needed. [...]

[...] If someone comes up with a halfway affordable MIDI controller that has a large number of knobs/sliders, supports automatic parameter naming from the host and displays this information visually, AND works without workarounds in FL Studio, I'd buy it. I just very much doubt something like that is actually on the horizon.

I think this is what Macro knobs on VSTs are for, no? Twiddle with the patch until you find the parameters which are most useful and then map ‘em. [...]

[...] I'm not responding to anyone in particular, but a few points:

1. Any controller is about compromise. There's no way to build a controller that will map to everything perfectly. It's not a realistic goal.

2. Blindly auto-mapping plugin controls to hardware will never work, but a standard like NKS (now for effects too) is a fine approach. I hope NI allows other manufacturers to create NKS compatible hardware and allow it to truly become an open format. In the absence of developer support, users should be allowed to create templates via some kind of editor. MIDI Learn in the plugins is the next best thing.

3. Layout is important, but so is flexibility. Having the System-8 mapped to softsynths works fairly well. Filter cutoff, resonance, HP, ADSR's, LFO's, reaching for these has become second nature. Where I get tripped up is around Osc parameters when some synths offer on/off buttons for waveforms and other synths use knobs for that task. A good synth controller would have a generic synth layout, with a strong enough combination of parameters to be flexible (example: knobs and buttons in the osc section). A good synth controller would also have a robust effect section in its layout.

4. Different tasks benefit from different control layouts. A good generic synth controller keyboard may make your hardware synths feel more like an instrument, but it would make for a clumsy effect controller box. The task matters. A hardware synth controller, a knob box for effects, and a mixer control surface would all be complimentary. I feel like splitting out controlling into those three specific tasks (rather than trying to make something good at everything) would be a better approach.

5. I agree with everyone who thinks high resolution screens with hardware knobs and faders are the way to go. I'd love a synth with a Roland JD-XA style layout, where the surface ran something Lemur/TouchOSC where I could rename/assign parameters and have the synth GUI change to reflect the current layout. Build something like that, make it waterproof (spilled beer is a thing at gigs), add a five-octave keyboard, pitch/modwheels, and lots of knobs/buttons/faders. If a touchscreen, physical buttons wouldn't be necessary, allow users/developers to create virtual buttons, but I'd want physical knobs and faders.

6. How many physical controls for a synth controller? We have 127 MIDI CC's right? Let's start from there and work down. The System-8 has something like 70 controls that transmit CC's and I still feel limited at times. If banking from one layout to another could truly change the entire UI because the contnroller was built on a screen, then fewer controls would be necessary.

7. A good controller like that won't be cheap. There's probably a good reason nothing like this exists. I'm sure it's occurred to someone at Native Instruments, but the closest they've come up with are their Komplete Kontrol keyboards and those aren't inexpensive. I'd expect something like that to be arouond 2.5k. Then who'd still be interested? [...]

Hi guys!

I don't know if the topic still interests you, but since you were looking for a decent softsynth MIDI controller, I assume so. I'm creating a concept for a new MIDI controller and it would be great to receive some feedback from you.

The idea is to design a MIDI controller fo software synthesizers, which will be built of modules. However, unlike other modular solutions, each module will correspond to a specific element of sound synthesis. The modules will be universal – we want to analize as many VSTi plugins as possible and develop the most versatile layout of functions / controls that will support most softsynths (of course the ones that can be mapped with MIDI). we know that it is impossible to do everything and satisfy everyone, but we want to design it really well and we believe it can be done. For example: the envelope module will be able to work with various plugins that offer ADSR, ADHSR, DAHDHR, T1 L1 T2 L2… etc. envelopes.

We would like to design the device in such a way that the user would have the impression as if he is interacting with a classic synthesizer – regardless of the plugin he is using. In addition, the controller will be equipped with a large number of high quality knobs and sliders, but in a very thoughtful layout. We are also considering the possibility of connecting and controlling hardware synthesizers through our device.

Our project is in the early stages of development. We decided to post it because we would like to get the widest possible feedback. At the moment we have a short description and some simple sketches that are intended to illustrate the idea. Please do not treat them as the final project. You can read about the idea here: https://www.oscine.co/. At the end of the page, you can find a short survey – we would be very grateful if you could complete it. After all, this device is designed for you, and we would like it to be the best softsynth hardware controller.

What are your thoughts on this?

Magdalena
Oscine

PS. Attachment description: This is a concept sketch of the modules - note, this is not the final project!
.

OSCINE_fb_thumbinal_3.jpg

[sjm]

I like the idea of modules (I better had, since I brought it up earlier), but I really, really want proper DAW integration. That means a protocol that just works off the bat and shows the name of the parameter you are controlling on the controller (LCD or something). Ideally there'd be a bit of smart logic behind the protocol too, so that if you had a envelope controller/template loaded, there'd be a way to communicate with the VSTs. The controller says "Hi, I control envelopes, here are my ADSR controller IDs" and the VST boots up with a default mapping that is already set up for that. Of course, you should be allowed to define you own mappings if you want, but it's awfully tedious having to do all of this stuff manually for every single VST when they tend to share a lot of common architecture and parameters that you'd like to access... ADSR, filter resonance and cut off etc. etc.

This is hopefully something that will happen if and when MIDI 2 happens. Until then, everything just feels like clunky (and proprietary) workarounds. I really think this needs to be baked into the DAW itself to work properly.