Why Are Some Lefties Playing Guitars Right-handedly?

[fmr]

"If you play the guitar the way the guitar was supposed to be played..."

I played the Asturias (more popularly known as the Leyenda) and the Recuerdos de la Alhambra by Tarrega, and other things with tremolo plucktime.

The piece is called Asturias (Leyenda), and is part of the "Suite Española" for piano, written by Isaac Albéniz. It's not "more popularly known" because caling it just Asturias or just Leyenda is just calling part of the name. Both are correct, and both incomplete. What is played on the guitar is a transcription done by Andres Segovia, which I think Narciso Yepes revised and perfected.

The point I made was that to say '<the right hand for a right-handed guitarist is where the analytical properties supposedly of the other side of the brain locate> is clueless about the guitar'; this does not indicate the dexterity issues of the hands at all. So as a pretty experienced guitarist (started 1970) including around 5 yrs trying to get a touring career going as a concert guitarist, I'm telling you something I know.

A tremolo, typically p a-m-i, p a-m-i [thumb for the bass, ring-middle-index] repeatedly (I saw a young woman do Recuerdos p m-i-m and I like the sound of it.) is something a moron can learn how to execute, depending perhaps on their athletic talent.

I said the decisions are left-hand first; think about it for two seconds. The hardest part is _not_ down to doing a fricken tremolo, believe that. It's just athletics, there is no thought required to do it per se. The difficulty executing a piece of music with it in there does involve coordination of the two hands, yeah.

I am no guitarist, although I have some friends who are classical guitarists. I can't say if a tremolo is something so easy that even a "moron" can play it. But both Asturias Leyenda and Recuerdos don't have just the quick arpeggiated figure (in the first case) or the tremolo (in the second case).

I saw many people playing Recuerdos, and those were somehow awful experiences. The tremolo has to be always equal (it is playing the melody). I rarely heard it played that well. In that piece, the left hand almost has no work to do. It's all about the right hand. And the Asturias is also a piece that seems to me (a no guitarist) really demanding in terms of technique. If you were skillful enough to play it after just a couple of years of study, I congratulate you. You were probably a very gifted student. I saw many students fail miserably while attempting to play this (it is one of my favorite guitar pieces). I'd say that, in this piece, both hands are called to do some demanding work simultaneously. And that's what usually happens in classical guitar pieces, like the ones from Villa-Lobos, Sor, Brouwer, Giuliani, Tárrega, etc.

It's like saying that the "Für Elise" is an easy piece. It seems so (the main part, although some of the middle episodes are not so easy), but still demands skills to play it. Anyway, my point was, when you play guitar using the traditional technique, or the classical technique, if you prefer (to not offend anyone), both hands are called to perform skillful and somehow difficult parts. It's not just a left-hand job.

[teacue]

Controlling the dynamic, the timbre and the agogik of several voices in a fugue with the right hand is a quite challenging task on a 6-strings classical guitar.
I always found it at least as challenging as the left hand.
I would say that right hand and left hand playing are such different tasks and wether one is more difficult than the other really depends on what you are playing.
I always found that playing single lines on a guitar (with fingers only) equally challenging for both hands.

I once tried to learn playing a celtic harp.
As a right handed guitar player it was at first easier to use the right hand and very unusual to use the left hand to pluck the strings but after some weeks it did not feel unusual any more.
I suppose then that with enough time both hands can learn almost everything.
And probably a right handed guitar player could even learn to play left handed.

[JoseC.]

Like others here, I began with somebody else's guitar, in my case, one of my sisters. I do not think much about being left handed, I use both hands pretty much the same, and I am cross dominant. I write left handed, and use a spoon to eat with my left hand, too, but I use the fork and knife European style, fork in the left and knife in the right. A right hand can opener has never been a problem, and if I am painting a wall or a piece of furniture I sometimes find myself hesitating before grabbing the paintbrush because I can use either hand.

Anyway, back on topic, I actually like fingerpicking when I play acoustic, and sometimes I wonder whether it would be easier for me if I played left handed.

[jancivil]

"If you play the guitar the way the guitar was supposed to be played..."

I played the Asturias (more popularly known as the Leyenda) and the Recuerdos de la Alhambra by Tarrega, and other things with tremolo plucktime.

The piece is called Asturias (Leyenda), and is part of the "Suite Española" for piano, written by Isaac Albéniz. It's not "more popularly known" because caling it just Asturias or just Leyenda is just calling part of the name. Both are correct, and both incomplete. What is played on the guitar is a transcription done by Andres Segovia, which I think Narciso Yepes revised and perfected.

As a point of fact, among classical guitarists and fans of, my experience was the more popular thing to call it is The Leyenda. Stating more popularly known as ≠ stating here is an alternative name I know.
Give us a break.

I know what the fvck it is. The first paper I ever wrote in my life was on Spanish music, focusing on 'Duende', the deep soul of Spanish music and the roots of things such as the Albeniz, and Granados et al in flamenco music.
THEN I went on to a performance major at conservatory, on guitar. I know who transcribed what, alright?

You brought tremolo on the guitar (which is a property of flamenco guitar and imitated in the piano composers' works) to counter points I made that the picking hand can't really be where the 'mathematical and analytical capacity of the other side of the brain must locate' per se. And no; I know, because I have been there and done that.

The tremolo technically isn't especially more challenging than any number of idiomatic things in the guitar.
Think about this for two whole seconds: to know which strings to tremolo, you know where those notes are on the fingerboard.

I can't say if a tremolo is something so easy that even a "moron" can play it.

The point is, and I think I did write well enough to convey my meaning, is that it's just athletics, rather than being the example for the picking hand to be where the mathematical and analytical capacity of the other side of the brain must locate. So, maybe you have trouble discerning the difference between hyperbole and literal expression?
I don't think you do. I think you're gaslighting me there, or something as distasteful.

ALSO NB: I meant the tremolo bit. Which is not arpeggiation, being, you know, tremolos.

It's like saying that the "Für Elise" is an easy piece.

Straw man said what, again?

The hardest part is _not_ down to doing a fricken tremolo, believe that.

So let me reiterate my, seemingly upon reading it all again clear enough, points.
I, as a guitarist - and I appear to not be alone, except for people who are overwhelmed by tremolo in classical guitar - consider 1) the thinking to be done as it must be done because of the reality of the instrument, unlike a keyboard instrument, from the fretboard end first; and 2) that a single string tremolo executed with 3 or 2 fingers alternating with a counter melody or bass line activated by the thumb is not evidence otherwise. It's not through itself more technically virtuosic than other right-hand speed work. It's difficult to pick every note of a scale run, i-m-i-m or what-have-you. A good rasgueado takes some real technique in order to do it with proper finesse. Et cetera.

It's not just a left-hand job.

In that piece [Recuerdos, by the guitarist/composer Tarrega], the left hand almost has no work to do.

Wow. Unmitigated gall, yeah?

edited typo

[jancivil]

Controlling the dynamic, the timbre and the agogik of several voices in a fugue with the right hand is a quite challenging task on a 6-strings classical guitar.
I always found it at least as challenging as the left hand.
I would say that right hand and left hand playing are such different tasks and wether one is more difficult than the other really depends on what you are playing.
I always found that playing single lines on a guitar (with fingers only) equally challenging for both hands.

I don't know where anybody made statements as to comparative difficulty other than me saying the exciting tremolo in two classical guitar workhorses is not such a good refutation of the point that the primary thinking on the guitar is on the fingerboard.

I came to classical from years of using a pick, so the right hand might have been more challenging than anything prior for me. And then to execute single lines, you'd better use supporting strokes, which I never thought of with a pick. Or they sound dinky, you have to project, there's no amp.

The right hand activates strings into motion in order to execute note choices using open and stopped strings which are decisions for the left hand first. If there's math, it's not a left-brained right-handed sort of dichotomous thing. The two hands have completely different tasks about 100% of the time on classical guitar.

Bream's right hand, such as here, TONE, is [part of] what sets him apart from everybody:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk4RsE7VJ7I

This is a piece that is not that hard, except to play it brilliantly and live up to the subtlety of it all.

The entire point was 'right-hand' is a bad example for the guy who's trying to shoehorn psychology into answers for a lack of ease with things.

[fmr]

I know what the fvck it is. The first paper I ever wrote in my life was on Spanish music, focusing on 'Duende', the deep soul of Spanish music and the roots of things such as the Albeniz, and Granados et al in flamenco music.
THEN I went on to a performance major at conservatory, on guitar. I know who transcribed what, alright?

This is a typical foreigner POV of what is the spanish culture. There is much more about Spain than the gypsy/flamenco and bullfighting culture of Andaluzia, you know? And if you know that suite from Albeniz, you will even notice that Leyenda is NOT inspired by that part of Spain, or by the flamenco, but by the north (Asturias). The southern inspired piece is the 'sevillanas'. You should take a listen to the whole suite. And you should stop to think for a moment that I was born and live nextdoor to Spain (which actually is a union of different kingdoms and people - of which Portugal was a part, the only one remaining independent - not a single nation), and I have many contacts with spanish people (from all over Spain). So, I think I know a little more about "Spain" (and the different "Spains", and their "deep souls") than you, despite your 'paper'.

You brought tremolo on the guitar (which is a property of flamenco guitar and imitated in the piano composers' works) to counterpoints I made that the picking hand can't really be where the 'mathematical and analytical capacity of the other side of the brain must locate' per se. And no; I know, because I have been there and done that.

WTF???? Tremolo was imitated by piano composers after the flamenco guitar? Are you nuts? What about the italian mandolin technique? Was that an imitation of the flamenco too? And what about the "Grande Valse Brillante" from Chopin? Did he imitate the flamenco guitar?

And when and how did I mention the 'mathematical and analytical capacity of the other side of the brain must locate'. I never talked about maths here. I brought these examples and the classical guitar technique to show that playing the guitar is a two hands job, where each hand has difficult tasks to perform (IMO, which is a non-playing opinion), not just a left hand task, as some seemed to think. And you ended saying the same with the example you posted. So, what's this about, again?

The tremolo technically isn't especially more challenging than any number of idiomatic things in the guitar. Think about this for two whole seconds: to know which strings to tremolo, you know where those notes are on the fingerboard.

I can't say if a tremolo is something so easy that even a "moron" can play it.

The point is, and I think I did write well enough to convey my meaning, is that it's just athletics, rather than being the example for the picking hand to be where the mathematical and analytical capacity of the other side of the brain must locate. So, maybe you have trouble discerning the difference between hyperbole and literal expression?
I don't think you do. I think you're gaslighting me there, or something as distasteful.

ALSO NB: I meant the tremolo bit. Which is not arpeggiation, being, you know, tremolos.

The hardest part is _not_ down to doing a fricken tremolo, believe that.

So let me reiterate my, seemingly upon reading it all again clear enough, points.
I, as a guitarist - and I appear to not be alone, except for people who are overwhelmed by tremolo in classical guitar - consider 1) the thinking to be done as it must be done because of the reality of the instrument, unlike a keyboard instrument, from the fretboard end first; and 2) that a single string tremolo executed with 3 or 2 fingers alternating with a counter melody or bass line activated by the thumb is not evidence otherwise. It's not through itself more technically virtuosic than other right-hand speed work. It's difficult to pick every note of a scale run, i-m-i-m or what-have-you. A good rasgueado takes some real technique in order to do it with proper finesse. Et cetera.

I'll leave the technique details to you, since I recognize you must know much more about that than me. But, leaving out all the insulting and rude language (which is somehow your way of expressing, and I will go over that, for the sake of the discussion), you are not much in disagreement with me. Both hands perform somehow difficult tasks, which require a domain of the instrument technique, although you put the emphasis on the left hand.

Oh, and there is no tremolo in Asturias (Leyenda). Not exactly. And nothing in any musical instrument technique can ever be limited to just "athletics". But that's my opinion, of course.

[jancivil]

Yeah, well the whole 'how the guitar should be played' was not good for my disposition at all.
Classical guitar, when did that even become a thing? But p a m i type tremolo isn't done in the baroque; there is an evolution of the instrument in terms of construction that finds finally a model in the 19th century for concert guitar; and in terms of the literature, tremolo is definitely a case from flamenco.

Classical guitars do things differently in terms of tone and sound production than flamenco guitarists. And as far as 'how it should be played', the supported stroke "apoyando" only came into being around the middle of the 19th century in all probability, and this came from flamenco guitar.

You can't play Baroque Guitar on a modern classical instrument, nor vice versa.
Tremolo represents a stage in evolution of guitar praxis.
Perhaps impossible to determine the first time in a classical type of piece, but many believe it was this (you may enjoy this):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxi9843_NUk


None of those distinctions make a lot of difference on the electric guitar. I developed techniques of my own. AFAIC a lot of whammy bar and bending strings [and many other things never available to a nylon-stringed instrument at all) might be 'how the guitar SHOULD be played' .
I am far from a gifted guitarist, tremolo is just one of many things one has to practice, it was expected of me somehow to get Leyenda under my belt but soon. It's just as challenging as far as I can tell to get the left hand part of the two pieces in question. I never need to hear either again as long as I live, familiarity breeds contempt type of thing.


anyway, right and left hand, let's have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmps3Cc-5_0

[Harry_HH]

Ah - two great Pacos - Pena and de Lucia...

[fmr]

Yeah, well the whole 'how the guitar should be played' was not good for my disposition at all.

I agree that wasn't the best way to say what I wanted to say Reading afterward, it really didn't came through very well. I meant the way it was played traditionally, before pop/rock.

There isn't a way ANY instrument SHOULD be played, of course (otherwise, there would be no evolution in the instrument techniques). Glad we had this sorted.

BTW: I leave here an example of what can be considered as the portuguese traditional guitar technique (derived from the Fado of Coimbra, mixed with traditional folk roots). I think this technique, although more discrete than the flamenco, is equally remarkable. Sorry, I don't have a live video. But I think it deserves a listen (the poem is great too, and the singer/songwriter is fantastic - unfortunately already dead): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsY20ZTLWDU

[teacue]

@jancivi
Now you made memories awake!
As I studied classical guitar in the seventies of last century it was all about Julian Breams warm and expressive tone, John Williams amazing (though sometimes considered cold) virtuosity and precision, the incredible speed of Paco de Lucia apoyando scales and runs and the fine authenticity of Paco Pena.
At this time I also loved to hear Alirio Diaz.
I had the chance to see all these great guitarists live in concerts and it was always a great joy
So thank you for these beautiful memories.

Though a kind of analytical person I never went in depth trying to understand what is about the two halves of the brain.
I also never associated this to the work of left and right hand on the guitar.

You write " the fingering hand is where the primary thinking - note_choices - locates"
I never thought of this but thinking a bit more about it, I find it an interesting thought.
But thinking a little more I then find that this thought does not always apply.
If you accompany a song either strumming the strings or playing some arpeggio then indeed one can say the chord comes first and then whatever is done with the right hand.
But isn't playing a scale completely different?
I find with scales and runs the left hand is as mechanical as the right hand, both are mechanically equally difficult to play, equally mind-challenging and what you write: "The difficulty executing a piece of music with it in there does involve coordination of the two hands" applies especially in this case.
One could probably say that any primary hand should be avoided in order to be able to play fast runs.

To me the work of both hands are very different but I felt always them as equal and never felt one hand being primary or it always depend on what you are playing.
But this surely might be different for each of us.

I would not take the tremolo part Recuerdo de la Alhambra as a typical mind-challenging work for the right hand.
Though I find the tremolo part very difficult to play and I agree with fmr that you often can hear very awful ways of playing this but to me it has to do with the "athtletical" skills of the player, it is simply difficult and need a lot of practice to be able to play a regular, controlled and fast tremolo. On my side I find the left hand of Recuerdo quite difficult too!

Another thought: when I try to play a piece that I did not play for years I often notice that I tend to forget the left hand more than the right hand. I have no clue what this means and it is probably very specific.

BTW isn't the classical guitar a marvellous instrument either played right- or left-handedly?

[tapper mike]

I'm right handed and just for giggles I learned to play not only left handed but upside down. I just flipped it over and played it. No restringing. It was a fun novelty thing I tried once because a buddy of mine always complained that he'd love to play guitar but all that were available were right handed ones. Then to add insult on top of that I bought a left handed guitar and played it right side up. Honestly it didn't take too long to figure out either just flipping it over or getting a lefty.. I kept it up for a couple of years just to rub it in his face. He had more excuses than doan's has pills and I just wanted to make a point that learning to play guitar was more about dedication. Eventually the novelty of me performing that was wore off. A funny thing about that was a buddy of mine owned (still owns) a guitar store. He's a lefty and plays right handed and he refuses to stock left handed guitars.

After all these years of not playing left handed and playing everything right handed I'm sure it would take me more than awhile to relearn.

With regards to fingerpicking. It took me forever to learn proper classical picking hand form. I still have to work it out for a long time before it settles in. When I first picked up the guitar I was totally focused on the pick. I developed a non standard yet comfortable approach to flatpicking similar to the way speed players use. Later I learned to incorporate my fingers in a hybrid fashion. But I was forever losing picks and I couldn't grow a nail to save my life as I had manual labor jobs that were tough on my hands. So I just willed myself to finger pick at an odd angle.

I tried various banjo finger picks like dunlop offers but they were terrible for my circulation and sounded horrible. Then a few years ago I started looking at the current alternatives and I liked Alaska Piks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P978kF-FVlA

Alaska Piks were the best for the price until I found butterfly picks. Butterfly picks are better for my own playing as I'm already used to playing with my fingers as close to the string as possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kmIouyjov0

Butterfly picks work great for me as there is no trimming involved just simple shaping. As well I can pick and tap with ease.

[jancivil]

Though a kind of analytical person I never went in depth trying to understand what is about the two halves of the brain.
I also never associated this to the work of left and right hand on the guitar.

You write " the fingering hand is where the primary thinking - note_choices - locates"
I never thought of this but thinking a bit more about it, I find it an interesting thought.
But thinking a little more I then find that this thought does not always apply.
If you accompany a song either strumming the strings or playing some arpeggio then indeed one can say the chord comes first and then whatever is done with the right hand.
But isn't playing a scale completely different?
I find with scales and runs the left hand is as mechanical as the right hand, both are mechanically equally difficult to play, equally mind-challenging and what you write: "The difficulty executing a piece of music with it in there does involve coordination of the two hands" applies especially in this case.
One could probably say that any primary hand should be avoided in order to be able to play fast runs.

To me the work of both hands are very different but I felt always them as equal and never felt one hand being primary or it always depend on what you are playing.

I certainly never went into it in any depth at all.

The point I wanted was that the left hand decisions govern the right hand decisions on the guitar. And you agree, to arpeggiate with the right hand fingering you have to have the chord determination, LH.
I am not saying more than that really.

No, I don't find that scales as a consideration does anything for me in this regard.
I came to classical having a pretty good left hand, although retaining one primary position was a slight adjustment.
BTW, once I had some fair dexterity with the i and m apoyanda strokes, I didn't spend time practicing scales, except the scalar work in a piece. For me it will have been a waste of time. I wasn't going to become any Paco, anyway.

I think I would have a mental problem trying to play guitar left-handed in the traditional way. I could be wrong, I never tried it. It seems alien to me. I think it's like trying to write left-handed, which I have tried.
And I actually have ease with a number of basic things equally 'handed'. So it seems to me people are individuals with interesting variances and trying to formulate a simple 'handedness means...' truism looks like a mistake.

[jancivil]

You brought tremolo on the guitar (which is a property of flamenco guitar and imitated in the piano composers' works) to counterpoints I made that the picking hand can't really be where the 'mathematical and analytical capacity of the other side of the brain must locate' per se. And no; I know, because I have been there and done that.

WTF???? Tremolo was imitated by piano composers after the flamenco guitar? Are you nuts? What about the italian mandolin technique? Was that an imitation of the flamenco too? And what about the "Grande Valse Brillante" from Chopin? Did he imitate the flamenco guitar?

I said, and this is out of my research, that Albéniz is imitating flamenco tremolo in that piece. (The other example is the piece by Tarrega, a guitarist.) I don't know the Chopin piece. I very definitely did not say 'all composers with something that looks to you like tremolo have to, in all cases, be imitating flamenco guitar. That particular tremolo, I will just say this, I have never found it to exist before flamenco guitar.

And it's pretty difficult for a mandolinist (or a guitarist with a flat pick approach) to imitate p a m i tremolo, which is_the_actual_example you put before us. Why do you need to make generalizations out of me addressing your very specific example? Why do reasoned statements have to be characterized as ridiculous to this extent, where you reach so? Apparently you fail to discern the difference.
"In the main theme the piano mimics the guitar technique of alternating the thumb and fingers of the right hand, playing a pedal-note open string with the index finger and a melody with the thumb."
Go try it with a pick.

I may be nuts but this is not the sign of it. I'm not sure a person saying "are you nuts" this wildly, and such a stretch you needed to get there, has a lot of room talking about insults as a way of expression. NB: all my "insulting and rude language", the worst of which appears to be "Unmitigated gall, yeah?" after you telling me that the left hand has really nothing to do in pieces I actually know.
The know-it-all whole sound from you was irritating to me, particularly in an area I once cared deeply about. The signal that I was once a guitarist that did this would appear to have been clear going in.


Oh BTW, Leyenda is what Albéniz called it. Asturias was added later by the publisher, sticking it post hoc in that suite. 'Asturias' is rather a misnomer, as what it reflects really is flamenco music of Andalusia. There is a way to play the bit in the middle like a *guitar* tremolo on the piano, nota bene, and I guarantee you that's what it reflects.

pure Andalusian flamenco

[audiojoe07]

A good deal of young people learning guitar, don't even think about the left-handed vs right-handed guitar concept. They simply, pick up right-handed guitars, which are far more common than left-handed guitars, and they're already starting at a baseline where they know nothing about guitar, so it's not a far-cry to learn right-handed guitar over left-handed guitar when its a skill that they have no coordination or skill at to begin with. To be blunt, many don't even think about it when they begin learning.

[farlukar]

MonoNeon is right-handed and plays a right-handed bass left-handed, because he is awesome like that.