KVR Audio

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:35 pm

I've been doing about -9 lufs. Now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if maybe that's too loud.

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:02 pm

dblock wrote:I've been doing about -9 lufs. Now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if maybe that's too loud.

Way too loud. In fact that way too loud for almost anything. But then again I am an anti-loudness guy.

You want to target -23 LKFS as per ITU-R BS.1770

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:13 pm

plexuss wrote:
dblock wrote:I've been doing about -9 lufs. Now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if maybe that's too loud.
Way too loud. In fact that way too loud for almost anything. But then again I am an anti-loudness guy.

You want to target -23 LKFS as per ITU-R BS.1770

Thanks for your input plexuss. I know the level will be taken down to -23lufs by the stations but I'm wanting to also have tracks loud enough for other uses. After looking into to it a little more and comparing with other tacks at different places I'm thinking maybe -14lufs or so may be a happy medium between what TV uses while still being competitive if I want to also submit to other sources. I'm not about the loudness was either but many music libraries still want a decent volume.
Thanks again

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:20 pm

You may want to consider creating separate files targetted to different values instead of hitting something loud like -9 or even -14 and relying on the broadcaster to lower it. I believe the point of the standards are for the source audio, not just the broadcast level.

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:28 pm

plexuss wrote:You may want to consider creating separate files targetted to different values instead of hitting something loud like -9 or even -14 and relying on the broadcaster to lower it. I believe the point of the standards are for the source audio, not just the broadcast level.

That's actually a good idea plexuss. I think it would make good sense to do that so I have options for different uses. Thanks!

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:57 pm

dblock wrote:
plexuss wrote:You may want to consider creating separate files targetted to different values instead of hitting something loud like -9 or even -14 and relying on the broadcaster to lower it. I believe the point of the standards are for the source audio, not just the broadcast level.
That's actually a good idea plexuss. I think it would make good sense to do that so I have options for different uses. Thanks!

Yes. And they would be optimized for each level you create. The point of the standards, and workflow, are to render the audio for your target loudness. Increasing or decreasing the audio from the targeted loudness to a different loudness (up or down) is not really in the spirit of the standards. The standards are there, among other things, to help maintain a standard higher level of audio quality.

Armadillo · Post by **Armadillo** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:22 pm

Most libraries I work with do their own mastering, but I try to get it quite loud prior to mastering, like -12 to -14 LUFS.

If you tracks sits with a library where most tracks are -7 LUFS, it makes no sense to have tracks that a much quieter as clients are unlikely to pick your tracks when they go through 50 loud tracks and your quiet one. Just the way it is.
I usually aim for -8 to -10 LUFS depending on the style, if I'm doing my own mastering.

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:29 pm

Armadillo wrote:Most libraries I work with do their own mastering, but I try to get it quite loud prior to mastering, like -12 to -14 LUFS.

If you tracks sits with a library where most tracks are -7 LUFS, it makes no sense to have tracks that a much quieter as clients are unlikely to pick your tracks when they go through 50 loud tracks and your quiet one. Just the way it is.
I usually aim for -8 to -10 LUFS depending on the style, if I'm doing my own mastering.

That's pretty much where I was at coming in between -8.5 and -9 for library work but just seemed a bit loud to me so I was was just wanting to get a feel for what others are aiming for.
I tried -23lufs and it's really not realistic for me and a couple of libraries have actually told me to turn it up and re-submit.

plexuss · Post by **plexuss** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:11 pm

If it were me, I'd target -16 to -14 if I could get away with it. Basically go as low as I could but not under that target. Ultimately it's the libraries property so if they are ok with it sounding like shit (if it does) that's their problem.

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:19 pm

plexuss wrote:If it were me, I'd target -16 to -14 if I could get away with it. Basically go as low as I could but not under that target. Ultimately it's the libraries property so if they are ok with it sounding like shit (if it does) that's their problem.

Yeah, I think I'll go for say, -12 to -14 for starters instead of the -8,-9 I've been doing and see how that goes. I'm not really worried about anything sounding like shit. I've had alot of TV placements and 85% of them are so buried in dialog you can hardly tell what you're listening to so most of it sounds like shit anyway.

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:30 pm

dblock wrote:
plexuss wrote:If it were me, I'd target -16 to -14 if I could get away with it. Basically go as low as I could but not under that target. Ultimately it's the libraries property so if they are ok with it sounding like shit (if it does) that's their problem.
Yeah, I think I'll go for say, -12 to -14 for starters instead of the -8,-9 I've been doing and see how that goes. I'm not really worried about anything sounding like shit. I've had alot of TV placements and 85% of them are so buried in dialog you can hardly tell what you're listening to so most of it sounds like shit anyway.

This has not anything to do with personal preference or it sounds like shit comments, if you want your tracks licensed from a library they need to be competitively as loud as an equivalent track, anyone telling you to use -23 Lufs hasn’t a clue what they are talking about and should be ignored. Sorry for tough tone but this kind of “loudness” elitism annoys me intensely. As you said most music is behind dialogue and in a sense less dynamics is a preference a lot of the time, an editor wants to set a level and leave it. -23 Lufs is a broadcast/streaming standard not one for mastering music for TV. Let the video editors turn it down and balance it in context with their program, it’s not up to composers to second guess what they are doing only to make it as easy as possible for them to use your music without issue.

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:39 pm

woodsdenis wrote:
dblock wrote:
plexuss wrote:If it were me, I'd target -16 to -14 if I could get away with it. Basically go as low as I could but not under that target. Ultimately it's the libraries property so if they are ok with it sounding like shit (if it does) that's their problem.
Yeah, I think I'll go for say, -12 to -14 for starters instead of the -8,-9 I've been doing and see how that goes. I'm not really worried about anything sounding like shit. I've had alot of TV placements and 85% of them are so buried in dialog you can hardly tell what you're listening to so most of it sounds like shit anyway.
This has not anything to do with personal preference or it sounds like shit comments, if you want your tracks licensed from a library they need to be competitively as loud as an equivalent track, anyone telling you to use -23 Lufs hasn’t a clue what they are talking about and should be ignored. Sorry for tough tone but this kind of “loudness” elitism annoys me intensely. As you said most music is behind dialogue and in a sense less dynamics is a preference a lot of the time, an editor wants to set a level and leave it. -23 Lufs is a broadcast/streaming standard not one for mastering music for TV. Let the video editors turn it down and balance it in context with their program, it’s not up to composers to second guess what they are doing only to make it as easy as possible for them to use your music without issue.

Well said woodsdenis. I've listened to many of your tracks on AS. Great stuff. I can always spot your tracks by the yellow duck. Anyway,so what lufs do you shoot for generally for tv use?

woodsdenis · Post by **woodsdenis** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:52 pm

dblock wrote:
woodsdenis wrote:
dblock wrote:
plexuss wrote:If it were me, I'd target -16 to -14 if I could get away with it. Basically go as low as I could but not under that target. Ultimately it's the libraries property so if they are ok with it sounding like shit (if it does) that's their problem.
Yeah, I think I'll go for say, -12 to -14 for starters instead of the -8,-9 I've been doing and see how that goes. I'm not really worried about anything sounding like shit. I've had alot of TV placements and 85% of them are so buried in dialog you can hardly tell what you're listening to so most of it sounds like shit anyway.
This has not anything to do with personal preference or it sounds like shit comments, if you want your tracks licensed from a library they need to be competitively as loud as an equivalent track, anyone telling you to use -23 Lufs hasn’t a clue what they are talking about and should be ignored. Sorry for tough tone but this kind of “loudness” elitism annoys me intensely. As you said most music is behind dialogue and in a sense less dynamics is a preference a lot of the time, an editor wants to set a level and leave it. -23 Lufs is a broadcast/streaming standard not one for mastering music for TV. Let the video editors turn it down and balance it in context with their program, it’s not up to composers to second guess what they are doing only to make it as easy as possible for them to use your music without issue.
Well said woodsdenis. I've listened to many of your tracks on AS. Great stuff. I can always spot your tracks by the yellow duck. Anyway,so what lufs do you shoot for generally for tv use?

As a "general" rule a modern drum centric pop/urban track I would aim for a Short term LUFS of -9 at its peak. If it sounds bad I would back off a little. If I put the same track mastered at -14 for example on the same site or indeed any other it would be significantly quieter and therefore less likely to be picked up. This may annoy the purists but that is a fact. In your OP this is about mastering for TV placements not anything else. I have hundreds of placements on TV worldwide and never had any refused because they were too loud, yet !!!!

noiseboyuk · Post by **noiseboyuk** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:59 pm

It sounds to me like there's a basic confusion here. If delivering music for TV use, it's music, no different to music for anywhere else. The whole -23db thing is the final program mix - dialogue, effects and yes music. Just as you wouldn't ask an actor to speak at -23db LUFS (though I'd like to see someone try), you don't deliver any other elements at this level either.

dblock · Post by **dblock** » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:12 pm

woodsdenis wrote:
dblock wrote:
woodsdenis wrote:
dblock wrote:
plexuss wrote:If it were me, I'd target -16 to -14 if I could get away with it. Basically go as low as I could but not under that target. Ultimately it's the libraries property so if they are ok with it sounding like shit (if it does) that's their problem.
Yeah, I think I'll go for say, -12 to -14 for starters instead of the -8,-9 I've been doing and see how that goes. I'm not really worried about anything sounding like shit. I've had alot of TV placements and 85% of them are so buried in dialog you can hardly tell what you're listening to so most of it sounds like shit anyway.
This has not anything to do with personal preference or it sounds like shit comments, if you want your tracks licensed from a library they need to be competitively as loud as an equivalent track, anyone telling you to use -23 Lufs hasn’t a clue what they are talking about and should be ignored. Sorry for tough tone but this kind of “loudness” elitism annoys me intensely. As you said most music is behind dialogue and in a sense less dynamics is a preference a lot of the time, an editor wants to set a level and leave it. -23 Lufs is a broadcast/streaming standard not one for mastering music for TV. Let the video editors turn it down and balance it in context with their program, it’s not up to composers to second guess what they are doing only to make it as easy as possible for them to use your music without issue.
Well said woodsdenis. I've listened to many of your tracks on AS. Great stuff. I can always spot your tracks by the yellow duck. Anyway,so what lufs do you shoot for generally for tv use?
As a "general" rule a modern drum centric pop/urban track I would aim for a Short term LUFS of -9 at its peak. If it sounds bad I would back off a little. If I put the same track mastered at -14 for example on the same site or indeed any other it would be significantly quieter and therefore less likely to be picked up. This may annoy the purists but that is a fact. In your OP this is about mastering for TV placements not anything else. I have hundreds of placements on TV worldwide and never had any refused because they were too loud, yet !!!!

Thanks for the input. I think I'll stick to what I've been doing which was to master my tracks around -9 integrated loudness after all. I looked up my emails to see who told me my tracks were mastered too loud and one was actually from AS but that was due to clipping and the other SK who can be just a bit picky at times. Haven't gotten that kind of feedback since.

What's a good LUFS level specifically for TV placements?