Hello,
I've been thinking for quite some time about buying SampleTank because I love the demos of the stretch feature. I was warned, however, by a review in emusician http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_ikmulti ... index.html
that stretch in the current version is buggy and introduces lots of distortion sounds (called 'thumps' by the reviewer).
I was happy when SampleTank 2 Free came out, because now I could try myself - and I run into those exact same distortions. I described them as sounding like a piece of paper fluttering in the wind to IK support, and they told me yes it's a bug and no they don't know when it will be fixed.
I'm really surprised by this because the distortion is so strong that it renders stretch completely useless. Why is not everyone complaining about this? How could IK be so brave to publish ST2 Free when it contains such a severe bug?
Is this bug perhaps restricted to some special systems only? But I have a pretty normal Win XP system... anybody here who can tell me more about this strange matter?
Thank you says
malamut
Distortions in stretch
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- KVRAF
- 3506 posts since 27 Dec, 2002 from North East England
Are you sure they're not your garden variety timestretch artifacts?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
At first I wasn't sure, that's why I asked their support.cron wrote:Are you sure they're not your garden variety timestretch artifacts?
It's really important to know whether or not this is a bug, because if it is a bug, then there's hope it will be fixed - if it's not a bug, then it means that strectch is trash from the start.But everyone who has SampleTank 2 (either free or non free) can tell. Just load the 'Oh Baby' from the Free Sounds download page. If the 'Oh' part sounds distorted on all keys except for E on the main octave (which is the root key), then you see what I mean. The effect is especially strong on the D of the main octave. If the 'Oh' doesn't sound worse than the 'Baby', then everything is OK on your system.
So, how about you all? Do you experience this or not? Anybody who knows more details about this?
malamut
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SuitcaseOfLizards SuitcaseOfLizards https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2363 - KVRAF
- 10879 posts since 3 Apr, 2002 from Austin, TX USA
Replicated here. Just downloaded and installed ST2 Free and the free sounds. Like you said.. on every key but the root, the "oh" is *distinctly* distorted while the "baby" sounds fine. Not sure what's going on...
Not seeing anything really like that on any of the other free sounds (so far).
Windows 2000, M-Audio Delta 44, Tracktion, 2.53GHz P4, 1GB RAM, 4x80MB 7200 RPM Maxtor drives on ATA-100 controller.
Not seeing anything really like that on any of the other free sounds (so far).
Windows 2000, M-Audio Delta 44, Tracktion, 2.53GHz P4, 1GB RAM, 4x80MB 7200 RPM Maxtor drives on ATA-100 controller.
Bandcamp: https://suitcaseoflizards.bandcamp.com/
Linux Mint, Waveform 13 Pro, U-He synths, Audio Damage effects,.
Linux Mint, Waveform 13 Pro, U-He synths, Audio Damage effects,.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
Thank you. It feels good not to be alone.woolyloach wrote:Replicated here.
If you listen carefully, you will hear similar artifacts also in the Soprano Aahs. They are much less severe, but still so severe that I wouldn't use those sounds in my works (and I'm just a hobby musician). They are most appearent in the top zone (try pressing middle c and holding it down for a while), however, and they are present on all tones of that zone, so this might just be a low-quality sample.
I wouldn't blame the hardware, by the way, because the problem doesn't go away when bouncing to disk (non-realtime mode, bypassing sound drivers).
Perhaps we are lucky and someone with connections to IK will comment on this.
malamut
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
when st2 came out plenty of people complained that stretch has very limited usefulness. Predictably, Squids came by and said that stretch was actually only meant as a, umm, neat effect. And that some of the noises it makes by fluke can be musically interesting sometimes.
Thats all true, but IK markets Stretch as more than a neat effect... Just another example of marketing leaping past the actual technology.
Thats all true, but IK markets Stretch as more than a neat effect... Just another example of marketing leaping past the actual technology.
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
First, that is a deeper question than tech support can really answer. Only the developers can answer that properly. Luckily, I am in touch with the developers and can explain it better than just calling it a "bug".
Timestretch/formant preservation artifacts are sometimes present in all technologies like this. In fact, if you compare Stretch to the Tone Machine in Kontakt you'll find it to retain much more character. Something like Melodyne has more parameters to tweak to get things just right but then it is a different way of using that technology all together (and more compicated as well even if it is cool for those that know how to use it). To have it in a virtual instrument is totally awesome. Did you guys at least download the demo song I did in the bonus tutorial? (please say yes). Some of these artifacts you cannot hear in a track. Tell me if you can hear them in the mp3 I did.
Anyway, unless there is an issue with the sounds I am unaware of, there are only some minor artifacts that are made up for with the ability to do things like play chords with single line phrases in sync (I mean, try doing this on any other sampler) or bending notes with realism (again, not possible with most samplers). I go over this in the tutorials on www.sampletank.com If you want to know more please read them. There's also a video that I did showing it as well on there.
Now, knowing that it is offering something that is better than all other sampler virtual instruments that either don't have formant preserving time stretching with independent control of the pitch, tempo and harmonics or DO and it is not even as good as ST2's Stretch perhaps puts things in perspective at least. That's reality at the moment.
Having said that, yes it is true that improvements will be made to the Stretch engine in the future. No official word on that yet though.
Timestretch/formant preservation artifacts are sometimes present in all technologies like this. In fact, if you compare Stretch to the Tone Machine in Kontakt you'll find it to retain much more character. Something like Melodyne has more parameters to tweak to get things just right but then it is a different way of using that technology all together (and more compicated as well even if it is cool for those that know how to use it). To have it in a virtual instrument is totally awesome. Did you guys at least download the demo song I did in the bonus tutorial? (please say yes). Some of these artifacts you cannot hear in a track. Tell me if you can hear them in the mp3 I did.
Anyway, unless there is an issue with the sounds I am unaware of, there are only some minor artifacts that are made up for with the ability to do things like play chords with single line phrases in sync (I mean, try doing this on any other sampler) or bending notes with realism (again, not possible with most samplers). I go over this in the tutorials on www.sampletank.com If you want to know more please read them. There's also a video that I did showing it as well on there.
Now, knowing that it is offering something that is better than all other sampler virtual instruments that either don't have formant preserving time stretching with independent control of the pitch, tempo and harmonics or DO and it is not even as good as ST2's Stretch perhaps puts things in perspective at least. That's reality at the moment.
Having said that, yes it is true that improvements will be made to the Stretch engine in the future. No official word on that yet though.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
@Squids: I must admit that I did not know about your mp3 so far. After some additional searching I found it (starting at the 'download free sounds', I had to go to 'Tips&Tricks', and from there to the last tutorial part, called 'Bonus Tutorial' - I think most people will not go that far after downloading the three directly visible free sounds and finding out that they have a problem with them...).
You are right that multiple tracks do a good job on covering up artifacts, especially when making strong use of percussion. In addition, accords also help covering them up. And perhaps the multiple effects which you put on it covered up even more.
Nevertheless, especially on the first 'Oh Baby' of your song (which is a single tone and not on the root key, if Tracktion imported the midi file correctly), the distortion *should* be clearly audible, but I don't hear any of it in your mp3. So I still think that support maybe was right, and it *is* a bug after all which I am experiencing on my system.
Squids, could I send you a file somewhere which contains just the middle c-d-e-f of 'Oh baby', as played on my system? I could send it as plain wav (1.1MB) or compressed as flac or lpac, so that you can be absolutely sure about what you hear. I'd like to know whether this is really what you get when playing the same notes on your system. After listening to TankBaby.mp3, I doubt it.
Thank you,
malamut
You are right that multiple tracks do a good job on covering up artifacts, especially when making strong use of percussion. In addition, accords also help covering them up. And perhaps the multiple effects which you put on it covered up even more.
Nevertheless, especially on the first 'Oh Baby' of your song (which is a single tone and not on the root key, if Tracktion imported the midi file correctly), the distortion *should* be clearly audible, but I don't hear any of it in your mp3. So I still think that support maybe was right, and it *is* a bug after all which I am experiencing on my system.
Squids, could I send you a file somewhere which contains just the middle c-d-e-f of 'Oh baby', as played on my system? I could send it as plain wav (1.1MB) or compressed as flac or lpac, so that you can be absolutely sure about what you hear. I'd like to know whether this is really what you get when playing the same notes on your system. After listening to TankBaby.mp3, I doubt it.
Thank you,
malamut
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
Sure. I am curious to hear if it is any more than the usual imperfections of time-stretch technology, some people call it "grain".
It could theoretically "act up" depdending on your system if there are any conflicts or if it is not fast enough to handle Stretch. One thing about Stretch is that it takes up some CPU power to use it. But, to be able to do some of the things it can do it is a really nice feature to have. In retrospect, I think my first group of lessons and sounds should have been less esoteric even though it happens to be one of the most unique features of any sample playback device.
So, next up will be some good old meat & potatoes sounds.
By the way, I really hope that people DO read the tutorials because there are actually abotu 7 MORE sounds from SR linked to within the tutorials! Go get them!
It could theoretically "act up" depdending on your system if there are any conflicts or if it is not fast enough to handle Stretch. One thing about Stretch is that it takes up some CPU power to use it. But, to be able to do some of the things it can do it is a really nice feature to have. In retrospect, I think my first group of lessons and sounds should have been less esoteric even though it happens to be one of the most unique features of any sample playback device.
So, next up will be some good old meat & potatoes sounds.
By the way, I really hope that people DO read the tutorials because there are actually abotu 7 MORE sounds from SR linked to within the tutorials! Go get them!
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- KVRist
- 62 posts since 11 Apr, 2002 from NC
Hey, just a quick thought. When you load stretch make sure by default that you set the harmonics knob to 0 before doing anything. This may cause the distortion you might be hearing. I will check on this on my end also.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
Thanks for the suggestion, Jason. I double-checked this, and the knob is on zero. I also deactivated the delay / reverb filter (which is present in the recording I sent to Squids), but that has no effect on the distorions I'm talking about. I've also made sure that tempo is set to 100%.
Changing the harmonics knob, by the way, gives funny sounds, but it also does not have any effect on the distortions I'm observing (neither positive nor negative).
When I sent the file to Squids, did this give you automatically access to it, too? Would you like your own copy? If so -> pm, please!
malamut
Changing the harmonics knob, by the way, gives funny sounds, but it also does not have any effect on the distortions I'm observing (neither positive nor negative).
When I sent the file to Squids, did this give you automatically access to it, too? Would you like your own copy?
If so -> pm, please!malamut
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
I got the file. Thanks. That is not "distortion". Those are subtle artifacts of time stretching. The "oh" part has less defined pitch and has some "grain" to it, especially when it is played at a different pitch (particularly a lower pitch than the root). This is the same as the sound I used in the track and as you can see you are not likely to hear anything within a track. Also, to play chords with a vocal phrase or change the melody line on the fly... to be able to use this kind of technology you have to accept a few imperfections in order to do the thing that you can't do normally with other sample players.
Depending on the material used with Stretch the results vary. Some are WAY worse than this and some can be better. It has to do with the technology itself and also the preanalysis. I know that improvements are being made to both but it is not considered a bug. It is how that technology works and it is always relative to the material it is being used on.
I've talked about Stretch quite a lot around here and on sampletank.com It really is amazing, but it is not the "miracle" solution to every sound. It is a technology, a science, a potential tool to get more out of a sound whether it is extending the range of transposition, better gliding or bending, playing harmonies with single line phrases and morphing harmonics and graintable type control of the time plus other creative things. Expectations, if compared with other similar technology of this type, should be lenient enough to allow for some imperctions like what you are hearing. But, like I said, take that sample and load it into any other software sample-based virtual instrument and see if you can do anything useful but play it back at it's original pitch. There's the perspective one should have on this I think.
Hope that helps! Anyway, download those other 7 sounds and next we'll have some other cool stuff.
Depending on the material used with Stretch the results vary. Some are WAY worse than this and some can be better. It has to do with the technology itself and also the preanalysis. I know that improvements are being made to both but it is not considered a bug. It is how that technology works and it is always relative to the material it is being used on.
I've talked about Stretch quite a lot around here and on sampletank.com It really is amazing, but it is not the "miracle" solution to every sound. It is a technology, a science, a potential tool to get more out of a sound whether it is extending the range of transposition, better gliding or bending, playing harmonies with single line phrases and morphing harmonics and graintable type control of the time plus other creative things. Expectations, if compared with other similar technology of this type, should be lenient enough to allow for some imperctions like what you are hearing. But, like I said, take that sample and load it into any other software sample-based virtual instrument and see if you can do anything useful but play it back at it's original pitch. There's the perspective one should have on this I think.
Hope that helps! Anyway, download those other 7 sounds and next we'll have some other cool stuff.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
Thanks for the feedback, Squids! Now at least I know what's going on - although I'm still really surprised about that first 'Ooh' in the mp3.
Of course I do not expect miracles, but I thought the artifacts would be a bit less audible, especially when shifting the pitch by small amounts only. Everyone who has seen Melodyne in action knows that that's possible.
I agree that Stretch is still great for many applications, but not for mine.
I strive for naturalism (meaning almost no effects), I use very small orchestras, I use very little percussion. There's nothing in my music to cover up such artifacts. Hence, for my kind of music, the current version of stretch is not useful.
So I'll keep investing my money in fully chromatic libraries for the moment. But as soon as I see something like 'new and improved stretch' on IK's homepage, I'll be back to have another look!
Thank you for your help!
malamut
Of course I do not expect miracles, but I thought the artifacts would be a bit less audible, especially when shifting the pitch by small amounts only. Everyone who has seen Melodyne in action knows that that's possible.
I agree that Stretch is still great for many applications, but not for mine.
I strive for naturalism (meaning almost no effects), I use very small orchestras, I use very little percussion. There's nothing in my music to cover up such artifacts. Hence, for my kind of music, the current version of stretch is not useful.So I'll keep investing my money in fully chromatic libraries for the moment. But as soon as I see something like 'new and improved stretch' on IK's homepage, I'll be back to have another look!
Thank you for your help!
malamut