Do I “need” analog synths?

[S0lo]

Given that the goal is to control hardware from software.

Who’s goal?

The industry? The industry doesn’t seem to care about high resolution control. Certainly not with hardware. Most users don’t care either, I think, so it’s not like existing hardware isn’t selling at all due to perceived inferiority.

My goal? Since the industry doesn’t care about high-resolution control, it isn’t an option for me. Certainly not with MIDI-driven physical controls. The exception being Kore, which is not MIDI, is extra complication, way too much configuration and menu diving for my tastes, and since it’s not running on my main machine due to it being abandoned, I’d still be recording audio anyway).

I was just replying to GearNostalgia specific comment about the Expert Sleepers ES-3 which converts ADAT to multiple audio/CV streams. Using this you can control an analog synth that has CV input for it's parameters from your DAW without using MIDI at all.

[Hammie]

All those Kore pictures... It’s a great device on a technical level, but I don’t find the user experience to be all that friendly. There’s just too much abbreviation, and navigation feels like a major chore from the controller. This is why I’ve made comments about menu diving.

I haven't read through the entire thread so maybe this has been covered already, but I totally agree with the above.

The OP talks about being bored with modern keyboards, and I think the cure for boredom is fun twiddly knobs & sliders that do cool stuff. In other words, getting away from the virtual world. That said, it's not necessarily an issue of analog vs. digital. For example, the Roland JD-800 is a purely digital synth, but it has one of the coolest layouts I've ever seen, around 50 sliders & knobs spread out across the panel. That itself sparks creativity and expressivity, and it just "plays" better due to the placebo effect I'm sure, but whatever works.

But back to needing analog synths, I say yes you should have at least 1, just to get back to those real world roots when you need it. It's the same as using a real piano, even though digital samples are so good I can't tell the difference half the time. New digital and virtual stuff will always "bore" the musician on a certain level because we know we're just playing bits in a computer. Sometimes, for the sake of plain inspiration, ya need the real deal.

PS: Forgot to mention, I have a Kore and agree it has some really powerful sounds, but I'm ashamed to admit I've only used it on 1 recording, just because it's such a pain to navigate those menus.

[Jace-BeOS]

I was just replying to GearNostalgia specific comment about the Expert Sleepers ES-3 which converts ADAT to multiple audio/CV streams. Using this you can control an analog synth that has CV input for it's parameters from your DAW without using MIDI at all.

What an interesting concept. I had never heard of it.

[Jace-BeOS]

I hope people are still coming by this thread because I have a question I would rather not start a new thread to ask:

Hypothetical setup:

Korg MS-20
Korg ARP Odyssey
Korg SQ-1
Behringer Neutron
Behringer Model D

Is it safe to interconnect all of these without risk of causing damage? The only risk I’m aware of is plugging an audio cable into a socket not made for audio input.

[pekbro]

I do have to say, that Eurorack is the shit imho... Heres some weird noise, with a delay added post,
otherwise nothing but the modular.

https://soundcloud.com/user-663163390/m ... esian-test

[S0lo]

I hope people are still coming by this thread because I have a question I would rather not start a new thread to ask:

Hypothetical setup:

Korg MS-20
Korg ARP Odyssey
Korg SQ-1
Behringer Neutron
Behringer Model D

Is it safe to interconnect all of these without risk of causing damage? The only risk I’m aware of is plugging an audio cable into a socket not made for audio input.

Although I have some of these I can't answer specifically. But I'd say generally speaking, YES with one exception regarding sending pitch to oscillators. Let me explain.

Most, "almost all" of the current Eurorack and modular and semi-modular synths out there use a system called "Volt per Octave" for sending pitch to oscillators. The exception is Korg stuff. Korg uses another system called "Hertz per Volt". To convert between the two systems, you need something like the "Harvestman English Tear" https://www.modulargrid.net/e/the-harve ... glish-tear

There is a video out there on how that works. Other than that it's all just voltages with no standard system.

But let me take a step back to make things clear from ground up. There are three common voltage levels in pro-audio.

1. Instrument level: around 0.1 Volts. Example: Guitar
2. Line level: around 1 to 3 Volts. Example: Audio interface
3. Eurorack/Modular level: around 10 Volts

Notice, that Eurorack levels have a much higher voltage than the other two. You can obviously plug a low level output into a high level input with no problems (you may need to amplify it). But the question is, can you plug a high leveled output into a lower level input WITHOUT damaging the input? This is were the grey area is. The answer is, "it depends" on the piece of gear it self. Usually well known manufacturers have safety nets and you wont damage anything no matter what.

To make sure, What I do, is I use attenuators. These will lower the higher levels. The cheapest I found is from KOMA https://koma-elektronik.com/?product=ko ... ator-cable

Actually you'll be needing attenuators any way to prevent the audio from clipping at the input side to have some useful musical results.

It is also useful to have a voltage meter around to check when in doubt.

Thats as far as I know.

[whyterabbyt]

To make sure, What I do, is I use attenuators. These will lower the higher levels. The cheapest I found is from KOMA https://koma-elektronik.com/?product=ko ... ator-cable

If you can solder, the Ryo Airtenuators are a slightly cheaper option.

[Jace-BeOS]

To make sure, What I do, is I use attenuators. These will lower the higher levels. The cheapest I found is from KOMA https://koma-elektronik.com/?product=ko ... ator-cable

If you can solder, the Ryo Airtenuators are a slightly cheaper option.

No soldering skills here. I think I understand the basics, but I’m fairly clumsy with my hands and I have a constant tremor, so I don’t have experience (aside from one super lucky accidental success reattaching a short capacitor onto a PowerMac motherboard it got knocked from when reassembled without the plastic shield). I’m not interested in trying to frustrate myself through the learning curve, which is considerable with clumsy/shaky hands.

[vurt]

those koma attenuator cables are pretty cool.
they're small enough units you dont notice them.
not sure how many you would "need" for that set-up though, i personally just have a few for adding to lfos so the cost wasnt prohibitive.

[Jace-BeOS]

[...]
Most, "almost all" of the current Eurorack and modular and semi-modular synths out there use a system called "Volt per Octave" for sending pitch to oscillators. The exception is Korg stuff. Korg uses another system called "Hertz per Volt".

Luckily the Korg SQ-1 supports both. Does the Korg ARP Odyssey use the Korg system or the more common system?

To convert between the two systems, you need something like the "Harvestman English Tear" https://www.modulargrid.net/e/the-harve ... glish-tear

Since I’m not building a rack system, this won’t be a solution for me in interconnecting pitch control. I’m just going to dedicate desk surface area to a few pieces of equipment. Adding a rack is more expense. I’m not even sure I will go for each of these synths. I’d like them for the variety of sound design, but I’ll be stealing money from my “new computer nest egg” to do this.

What about the other control signals? Are they compatible?

But let me take a step back to make things clear from ground up. There are three common voltage levels in pro-audio.

1. Instrument level: around 0.1 Volts. Example: Guitar
2. Line level: around 1 Volts. Example: Audio interface
3. Eurorack/Modular level: around 10 Volts

Wow, that’s quite a difference. What’s the reason?

Notice, that Eurorack levels have a much higher voltage than the other two. You can obviously plug a low level output into a high level input with no problems (you may need to amplify it). But the question is, can you plug a high leveled output into a lower level input WITHOUT damaging the input? This is were the grey area is. The answer is, "it depends" on the piece of gear it self. Usually well known manufacturers have safety nets and you wont damage anything no matter what.

This... is a bit stressful. I see some hardware has a “high” and “low” output. I assumed one was guitar level and the other was line level. Am I incorrect in this assumption?

The two Behringer synths are designed to be modified to fit into a Eurorack. Does that mean their audio voltages are Eurorack voltage?

To make sure, What I do, is I use attenuators. These will lower the higher levels. The cheapest I found is from KOMA https://koma-elektronik.com/?product=ko ... ator-cable

Good to know. Seems straight-forward enough. Actually, are the sliders labeled with the direction of attenuation? I saw the page and the pics but didn’t notice labeling on the slider lump.

Actually you'll be needing attenuators any way to prevent the audio from clipping at the input side to have some useful musical results.

Wouldn’t it just be a matter of reducing the output at the source synth?

It is also useful to have a voltage meter around to check when in doubt.

Luckily I do have a multimeter. I’m hoping I can at least read voltages correctly

Another thing that comes to mind: Would I be okay with splitter cables to split CV and audio to multiple devices or would there be too much loss of signal? Again, utility rack components won’t help me here.

[JCJR]

So far as I know, all on your list including Odyssey are 1 v per Oct except that ms20.

Dunno how many patch points are in a modern Odyssey? My old white face was so early in the 1970s it didn't have any patch points at all till I added them. I know I added CV, gate and trigger. Both in and out for 6 jacks.

But all that really gives you is the equivalent of note-only midi control. Would need lots more patch points to cross wire in meaningful way with other synths for "mega patches" rather than just layers. Maybe the new odysseys have lots more patch points? Dunno. It is pretty easy to add patch points to an Odyssey. At least an old full size one had lots of space inside. Maybe not with new mini models even if the circuit might be identical?

Anyway I would tend toward less is more and suspect a patch too big to make on something like an Odyssey could possibly risk being over-elaborate, trying too hard.

One old incompatibility, the moogs wanted to control note on / off envelopes and such with s-trig rather than the pair of gate + trigger cables. There were simple circuits to convert between s-trig and gate/trig. Dunno if Moog or Moog clones still insist on using s-trig. No big deal just one more little annoyance.

[S0lo]

Luckily the Korg SQ-1 supports both. Does the Korg ARP Odyssey use the Korg system or the more common system?

I just checked the manual very quickly, it does say 1V/oct for the CV in/out!!. Please recheck.

What about the other control signals? Are they compatible?

Yes, The same basic rules apply. The exception is if you want to get control/CV past your audio interface to your DAW. But thats a different story all together.

Wow, that’s quite a difference. What’s the reason?

Well thats the golden question isn't it. I don't know to be honest . But I suppose that modular would need high levels to overcome the noise floor level and EMI which can be high with all these cables and modules and PSU noise. i.e to have a high SNR for good quality.

Notice, that Eurorack levels have a much higher voltage than the other two. You can obviously plug a low level output into a high level input with no problems (you may need to amplify it). But the question is, can you plug a high leveled output into a lower level input WITHOUT damaging the input? This is were the grey area is. The answer is, "it depends" on the piece of gear it self. Usually well known manufacturers have safety nets and you wont damage anything no matter what.

This... is a bit stressful. I see some hardware has a “high” and “low” output. I assumed one was guitar level and the other was line level. Am I incorrect in this assumption?

Yes, it seams so. that low output is probably designed to go into guitar pedals that support only instrument level. While the other high out should go to a mixer or so.

The two Behringer synths are designed to be modified to fit into a Eurorack. Does that mean their audio voltages are Eurorack voltage?

It should be, I've seen several videos of people using these synths with Eurorack. But don't take my word for it. Funny, enough I do have the neutron but never used it with Eurorack!!

Good to know. Seems straight-forward enough. Actually, are the sliders labeled with the direction of attenuation? I saw the page and the pics but didn’t notice labeling on the slider lump.

There is a min/max labels on both ends of the slider. Very small.

Actually you'll be needing attenuators any way to prevent the audio from clipping at the input side to have some useful musical results.

Wouldn’t it just be a matter of reducing the output at the source synth?

That will work only for the audio output. But you have all types of other outputs like LFO, ADSR, gate, noise, whatever. I recon they don't come with their own level control for each.

Another thing that comes to mind: Would I be okay with splitter cables to split CV and audio to multiple devices or would there be too much loss of signal? Again, utility rack components won’t help me here.

A few splits won't matter, but too many, may of may not deteriorate the signal depending on how powerful is the source output.

[BertKoor]

You ask about the voltages?
TTL was an industry standard once: 0-5V.
But ttl components are robust enough to handle 10V. Ten octaves is enough and one volt per octave makes sense.

[acYm]

All those Kore pictures... It’s a great device on a technical level, but I don’t find the user experience to be all that friendly. There’s just too much abbreviation, and navigation feels like a major chore from the controller. This is why I’ve made comments about menu diving.

I’m sure that, once you’ve got it set up how you want it, you can be proficient in its usage, but my brain doesn’t like all the setup, the abbreviations, the need to visually link a set of items on a tiny screen off to the right to the knobs and buttons on the left... It feels like I’m poking at something with a long stick, through the bars of a cage. The hardware controller offers good knobs, but not a good user interface.

indeed. a modern successor to Kore would have a better screen, allowing longer names and less abbreviation. I do like having the screen to the side so it's not hidden by my hand while I tweak the knob, but this was a common complaint and it does make it easier to learn when each knob has its display next to it. I remember it was a buzzkill at first.
it's not a flawless platform but I mostly aimed to demonstrate that full-range universal VST control is technically feasible, and how the host plays a large role in this possibility. also that once it's setup, the software is very well hidden from sight, leaving room for convincing hardware workflow. all while pretending MIDI doesn't even exist.

I certainly can't say the user experience isn't awful. it's as unintuitive as complicated, and trying to decypher the manual is a terrifying memory of my noob days - next to it the Sonar manual was comforting. trench-tier presentation all around... the promo videos on youtube say a lot about that

I'm curious as to how you would have improved navigation between modules from the controller? any ideas? it could probably be faster... to me, the mouse is very hard to beat for quickly navigating.
within a Kore chain I move around with the controller but to select another Kore I just open it up and click the focus button, it's faster.

when I look at some of the changes that happened in the system from Kore 1 to 2, it's like they realized that a mouse simply excels at some things while using software and that it should be welcome as a complement to the controller.

[egbert101]

I hope people are still coming by this thread because I have a question I would rather not start a new thread to ask:

Hypothetical setup:

Korg MS-20
Korg ARP Odyssey
Korg SQ-1
Behringer Neutron
Behringer Model D

Is it safe to interconnect all of these without risk of causing damage? The only risk I’m aware of is plugging an audio cable into a socket not made for audio input.

If you are a big fan of the ARP Odyssey, you may want to wait for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGElh7LlZt8