KVR Audio

nicolasvr · Post by **nicolasvr** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:18 am

Hi

i'm routing PT11 to Ableton 10 through the virtual cables loopback-system Totalmix offers with the MADIface Pro i own, and back into PT to print the efx used in Live. This is my setup:

In PT:
External FX 1 send -> MADI 1/2

In TotalMIX:
MADI 1/2 (software playback)-> MADI 1/2 hardware output (loopback)

In Live:
MADI 1/2 (hardware input) -> Live efx chain -> MADI 3/4

In TotalMIX:
MADI 3/4 (software playback) -> MADI 3/4 hardware output (loopback)

In PT:
MADI 3/4 (hardware input) -> External FX 1 return

Problem is that i'm getting a 0.5sec delay between the source track in PT and it's processed return..
Anyone could help a hand with this?

Jim Roseberry · Post by **Jim Roseberry** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:46 am

nicolasvr wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:18 am Hi

i'm routing PT11 to Ableton 10 through the virtual cables loopback-system Totalmix offers with the MADIface Pro i own, and back into PT to print the efx used in Live. This is my setup:

In PT:
External FX 1 send -> MADI 1/2

In TotalMIX:
MADI 1/2 (software playback)-> MADI 1/2 hardware output (loopback)

In Live:
MADI 1/2 (hardware input) -> Live efx chain -> MADI 3/4

In TotalMIX:
MADI 3/4 (software playback) -> MADI 3/4 hardware output (loopback)

In PT:
MADI 3/4 (hardware input) -> External FX 1 return

Problem is that i'm getting a 0.5sec delay between the source track in PT and it's processed return..
Anyone could help a hand with this?

Any time you're dealing with DSP processing, the audio has to be buffered and processed in that buffer. When dealing with a single DAW application, automatic Plugin Delay Compensation adjusts for the delay (upon playback), so you don't notice it.

In your example, you're sending audio from ProTools to Live
Live is then processing this audio
The processed audio is then routed back to ProTools

The delay you're experiencing is normal given the situation.
Live is buffering/processing the audio (which causes latency).
Since the audio is routed out of Live (in realtime), there's no means of compensating for the latency.

v1o · Post by **v1o** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:17 am

Try lower buffer settings and see if you can squeeze more ms.

Is there a reason you can’t print the audio in Ableton?

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:06 am

I this live playback or just rendering?
Are you syncing with MTC, or?

If rendering calibrate and set -500ms delay on track in PT, or whatever needed to make it align in Live.

Or tell Live that you have 500ms delay on recording track, so it could misplace recorded clip by that amount.

nicolasvr · Post by **nicolasvr** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:23 pm

Any time you're dealing with DSP processing, the audio has to be buffered and processed in that buffer. When dealing with a single DAW application, automatic Plugin Delay Compensation adjusts for the delay (upon playback), so you don't notice it.

damn didn't think about it.. pretty logic yes.
no other way than having to bounce the tracks from PT and importing them in Live.
thanks for the clear explanation Jim!

nicolasvr · Post by **nicolasvr** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:26 pm

v1o wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:17 am Try lower buffer settings and see if you can squeeze more ms.

Is there a reason you can’t print the audio in Reason?

even with a buffer size of 64 samples you hear like a flanger-effect. it would also cause immediate glitching and clicks since i use a fair amount of automation in the efx chains.
will be the basic way of bouncing out from PT and importing in Live.
thanks for replying!

nicolasvr · Post by **nicolasvr** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:03 pm

lfm wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:06 am I this live playback or just rendering?
Are you syncing with MTC, or?

If rendering calibrate and set -500ms delay on track in PT, or whatever needed to make it align in Live.

Or tell Live that you have 500ms delay on recording track, so it could misplace recorded clip by that amount.

Live playback for monitoring the result, to then render in the efx return-track in PT.
like Jim explained, i don't get the ADC to work in Live, and so i repeatedly will have to change the Track Delay in Live. I did sync their timelines through MTC using LoopBE MIDI. This disables the track delay option in Live. So no use..

Jim Roseberry · Post by **Jim Roseberry** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:34 pm

Using smaller ASIO buffer size will cause the latency to be lower... but won't solve the issue.
There will still be enough latency to cause comb-filtering or phase issues.

The only solution is to manually shift the audio processed by Live (moving it earlier in time)... so it lines up properly in the final ProTools timeline.

If possible, you could put a short high-transient "tick/click" before the desired audio starts... and use this to quickly align Live's processed audio in the final ProTools timeline.
This may or may not be possible... depending on the type of processing Live is doing.

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:50 pm

nicolasvr wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:03 pm
lfm wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:06 am I this live playback or just rendering?
Are you syncing with MTC, or?

If rendering calibrate and set -500ms delay on track in PT, or whatever needed to make it align in Live.

Or tell Live that you have 500ms delay on recording track, so it could misplace recorded clip by that amount.
Live playback for monitoring the result, to then render in the efx return-track in PT.
like Jim explained, i don't get the ADC to work in Live, and so i repeatedly will have to change the Track Delay in Live. I did sync their timelines through MTC using LoopBE MIDI. This disables the track delay option in Live. So no use..

Setting -500ms in PT track - should make that play earlier by 0.5s.
You got a module in mixer in PT for that(at least from PT 8 I think).
I don't remember for sure if you set in ms or samples in PT.

It's the same thing I do all the time with midi tracks - make it play early by amount that external gear need.

So for MTC PT is master and Live is slave, I think it should work.

nicolasvr · Post by **nicolasvr** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:19 pm

Setting -500ms in PT track - should make that play earlier by 0.5s.
You got a module in mixer in PT for that(at least from PT 8 I think).
I don't remember for sure if you set in ms or samples in PT.

It's the same thing I do all the time with midi tracks - make it play early by amount that external gear need.

So for MTC PT is master and Live is slave, I think it should work.

Is it called Time Adjuster, the module in Pro Tools you're talking about?

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:48 pm

nicolasvr wrote: Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:19 pm
Setting -500ms in PT track - should make that play earlier by 0.5s.
You got a module in mixer in PT for that(at least from PT 8 I think).
I don't remember for sure if you set in ms or samples in PT.

It's the same thing I do all the time with midi tracks - make it play early by amount that external gear need.

So for MTC PT is master and Live is slave, I think it should work.

Is it called Time Adjuster, the module in Pro Tools you're talking about?

Searching PT manual - Time adjuster is a plugin - so no.
It's just a module showing three fields at bottom of mixer.
One showing how much that track is currently delayed when played back.
One showing how much delay loaded plugins on that track introduce.
And one field to set your own delay.

"Delay Compensation View The Delay Compensa-
tion View displays the total amount of plug-in and
hardware insert delay on each track, lets you apply
a user offset of track delay, and displays the total
amount of delay that Pro Tools applies to each
track. The Delay Compensation View can be
shown or hidden in the Mix Window."

Search term "user offset" in manual and you find it, I think.
I have reference for 12.8, not newest.

Select View - Mix Window - Delay compensation.

It's the one thing I wish every daw copied from PT. You really feel in control, especially doing recordings late in mixing process.

RME Totalmix loopback delay between DAWs