What are your thoughts on Symbolic Sounds Kyma 7 in 2019?

[V0RT3X]

Is it still the king for power hungry DSP based sound design or have we finally started to catch up with multi-core computing in 2019?

I was listening to a sound demos and they are good, but they don't sound $2970 USD good which is the starting price for a Pacarana. Actually with enough processing you can come pretty close with existing plugins and a computer.

What are the strengths of the system compared to the latest in plugin technology on computers?

Some sound demos
https://soundcloud.com/roland-kuit/sets/kyma-x

[CinningBao]

Despite its age, and me not actually having one to be able to actually compare, knowing what their formant/spectral stuff sounded like 10 years ago, I haven't heard anything come anywhere near it since.

A lot of the other stuff, weird delays/reverbs/resonators/sequencers/grains/oscillators probably could be compared to other current developers - Reaktor sequencers, a trillion different reverbs and delays and sonic manipulators from plugin developers, new synthesis techniques (mostly defined and theorised years before being possible) can now run in a simple plugin instrument.. the point is they can't communicate in the same way the Kyma stuff can, like a very complex modular system.

So, I would say yes, there is still a place for it, and yes, I still yearn for a Pacarana system (even though you didn't ask that), and so do you (secretly).

[V0RT3X]

Despite its age, and me not actually having one to be able to actually compare, knowing what their formant/spectral stuff sounded like 10 years ago, I haven't heard anything come anywhere near it since.

A lot of the other stuff, weird delays/reverbs/resonators/sequencers/grains/oscillators probably could be compared to other current developers - Reaktor sequencers, a trillion different reverbs and delays and sonic manipulators from plugin developers, new synthesis techniques (mostly defined and theorised years before being possible) can now run in a simple plugin instrument.. the point is they can't communicate in the same way the Kyma stuff can, like a very complex modular system.

So, I would say yes, there is still a place for it, and yes, I still yearn for a Pacarana system (even though you didn't ask that), and so do you (secretly).

I've been following Kyma fairly often ever since I heard of it years ago, and at this point I am in a position where I could buy a pacarana in the next few years. I'm still not really sure how the modular workflow you speak of works so I probably should look it up on youtube or something as it sounds very intriguing. However with a purchase like this I'd almost say it won't hold it's value as computational powers in modern computing continues to rise. I guess I'm just skeptical because I have this feeling that in a few years we'll start to see some real crazy leaps in what we can do with Realtime audio using multi-core processing.

It is definitely interesting though, and yah I do kind of want one.

[deastman]

I’ve never had my hands on a Kyma system, although I’ve looked into it and seriously considered buying one many times over the years. I’m just spread too thin already and wouldn’t be able to invest the time to make it worthwhile.

With that in mind, I don’t think the DSP power alone is what makes it unique. Yes, you could do the same with native CPU processing. Except not really, because I’m pretty sure that Kyma processes per sample and not in large packets. But that still isn’t the point. The point is that it is a fairly unique system which doesn’t conform to many of the standards we’ve now established over the years. The way it freely routes and manipulates data, the Tao editor, the integrated Smalltalk language, the timeline for triggering arbitrary events, the existing suite of available tools, all combined with the dedicated DSP hardware... put it all together and you have something which pretty unique. Is it worth the price? Well, again, if you’re prepared to dedicate yourself to it exclusively for a long time and master its intricacies, sure. But if you’re going to be a casual user looking to morph your voice once in a while or you want something as immediate as VCV Rack, or you don’t want to get super technical, it might not be the best choice.

[Xenakios]

It's still just an expensive dongle for some DSP algorithms the developer isn't willing to implement as general purpose CPU code because that way it could be cracked/reverse engineered more easily. Also having it only as expensive hardware gives it a certain mystery and prestige.

It seems the main point of Kyma anyone ever talks about is the spectral morphing, I haven't seen much buzz about its reverbs, granular, synthesis etc capabilities. The latter are likely pretty much completely covered these days with general purpose CPU based plugins. I don't see any reason why similar spectral morphing processings couldn't be implemented with general purpose CPUs, but maybe it just hasn't been seen as commercially viable to do by developers. It would take years to develop a niche product with not much sales in the end.

[deastman]

It's still just an expensive dongle for some DSP algorithms the developer isn't willing to implement as general purpose CPU code because that way it could be cracked/reverse engineered more easily. Also having it only as expensive hardware gives it a certain mystery and prestige.

It seems the main point of Kyma anyone ever talks about is the spectral morphing, I haven't seen much buzz about its reverbs, granular, synthesis etc capabilities. The latter are likely pretty much completely covered these days with general purpose CPU based plugins. I don't see any reason why similar spectral morphing processings couldn't be implemented with general purpose CPUs, but maybe it just hasn't been seen as commercially viable to do by developers. It would take years to develop a niche product with not much sales in the end.

That’s a pretty cynical view of their motives. To the best of my knowledge, we’re talking about a two person company who have been developing and iterating on their only product for many years now. They have a singular focus on continuing to make that product the best that it can be, without throwing it all out to go into the VST market.

[Steve Bolivar]

I imagine if making unique sounds was your bread and butter business, like a company that did sound design for movies and video games, it would make financial sense.

[Neon Breath]

It's still just an expensive dongle for some DSP algorithms the developer isn't willing to implement as general purpose CPU code because that way it could be cracked/reverse engineered more easily. Also having it only as expensive hardware gives it a certain mystery and prestige.

It seems the main point of Kyma anyone ever talks about is the spectral morphing, I haven't seen much buzz about its reverbs, granular, synthesis etc capabilities. The latter are likely pretty much completely covered these days with general purpose CPU based plugins. I don't see any reason why similar spectral morphing processings couldn't be implemented with general purpose CPUs, but maybe it just hasn't been seen as commercially viable to do by developers. It would take years to develop a niche product with not much sales in the end.

That’s a pretty cynical view of their motives. To the best of my knowledge, we’re talking about a two person company who have been developing and iterating on their only product for many years now. They have a singular focus on continuing to make that product the best that it can be, without throwing it all out to go into the VST market.

Well, he's not totally wrong to be honest. I good friend of mine has a Kyma system in his working studio, so I had the chance to tried it & experiment with it several times over the years. I'd say about 10 years ago or so, it was still very relevant & special in term of sonic capabilities and it still could achieve things to sounds that CPU based software & plugins couldn't. Not that much today, I have to admit. I guess it still has unique ways of treating & transforming sounds, no doubt but I think its power and niche uniqueness is dissolving more and more, with all the powerful plugins and native tools DAWs have nowadays. You still buy a unique system when you get Kyma, with unique algorithms & a rock-solid support from them, they are very well renowned for that. But purely in term of true sonic qualities, most tools today (granular, spectral & other exotic FFT based effects) can match Kyma & you probably could do the same thing with a collection of plugins for different developers. With Kyma, everything is under the same hood though which for some can be an advantage.

You still buy one hell of a Rolls Royce when you get Kyma. But there's definitely other options now too while you didn't in the 80's when Kyma was born.

My friend's Kyma system hasn't been fired up since many many months, if not years he says. They rarely use it now in their studio for post & sound design jobs, plugins and DAWs taking the place instead. I think that's a sign.

[pdxindy]

I imagine if making unique sounds was your bread and butter business, like a company that did sound design for movies and video games, it would make financial sense.

I have no trouble making unique sounds with my various plugins. Even if I never buy another tool, I will never run out as it is.

[Neon Breath]

Keep in mind that Kyma is a legacy tool from the 80's, an era without plugins and very weak computers. Not that it makes it useless now but it certainly isn't the king of the hill anymore for sound treatments and audio mangling. I consider it as a tool (a very expensive one) among many others.

[deastman]

I know Justin3am bought a system after the Pacarana was released. I’m hoping he’ll chime in here... it would be good to get the perspective of someone who actually owns one.

[whyterabbyt]

Couldnt realistically afford a Kyma (as in I could buy one, but couldnt justify it sanely) so Ive always kinda hoped that someone would come along and write a really good modern graphical score/instrument editor for Csound, because I always felt that would be the one thing that I think would offer a similarly impressive body of algorithms and capabilities as the Kyma environment.

Rory Walsh's Cabbage project keeps me in hope of that.

[Tj Shredder]

More than a decade ago I was working with a Kyma system at CCMIX. Personally I prefered Max/MSP as I was so much more familiar with it. If you just look at effects, surely you can achieve this with other tools as well nowadays.
But the more unique part of the Kyma system was the interactive sequencer. I do not know of anything comparable... I always wished I would have something like that within Max, but Cycling went the Max4Live route instead. The Kyma sequencer is a completely different mind set...
I never considered the hardware that important, but even UAD is going that route to justify high prices...
I would consider a software only version, the hardware is too much hassle...

[Neon Breath]

I would consider a software only version, the hardware is too much hassle...

That would be a clever move from them, as I'm sure many artists & sound designers would finally dive into Kyma for good and buy the software only without all that cumbersome hardware gear.

[deastman]

I would consider a software only version, the hardware is too much hassle...

That would be a clever move from them, as I'm sure many artists & sound designers would finally dive into Kyma for good and buy the software only without all that cumbersome hardware gear.

While I don’t agree with the view posted earlier that Pacarana is merely an elaborate dongle, it does serve that purpose as well. If Kyma was released as a software only version, many artists and sound designers would finally be able to steal it, and there goes the entire business that Symbolic has built up over decades.