KVR Audio

quincy · Post by **quincy** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:19 am

Hi all.

I have been considering upgrading my Live 10 Intro and getting Live 10 Suite. Live Intro is a great proposition these days (in my opinion) because they recently started to include the Complex warp modes which means it can be used for DJ and Remix type of tasks but also makes the bundled devices like Simpler a lot more useful.

I installed the Live 10 Suite demo recently and yesterday and even just adding a few basic Max4Live LFO devices into empty project (no other devices, no audio, not even hitting play) and the LFOs seem to take up about 4% CPU each on my dual-core i5 late 2013 Macbook Pro. I know it's not exactly a state-of-the-art machine but 4% for a simple LFO?! I was a bit shocked. If I use Bitwig 8-track (another option for upgrading) then I can add some devices and add tens of complex modulators to a synth or effect and it hardly makes a dent on the CPU.

Is M4L really such a CPU hog, even with the recent update to Live 10 and the supposed improvement to M4L integration and performance?! I have absolutely ZERO interest in a Live vs Bitwig argument as they are both great bits of software with lots to offer but I'm just a bit shocked about just how poor the performance of Max4Live seems to be. I'm curious about many of the bundled M4L devices such as various polymetric step sequencers and other fun toys but are they just going to bring my Macbook Pro to it's knees before I've even got started?!

Wavetable, by comparison, seems like a great synth and it has complex and powerful sounds that don't decimate my CPU, so this seems to suggest that it's not an inherent issue with Live 10 "native" devices but related to Max4Live.

Any further insight welcome. I don't use any external interfaces or other hardware that ought to cause a problem.

enCiphered · Post by **enCiphered** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:14 pm

The performance of M4L is great. I´m using dozens of M4L devices on multiple tracks all the time and never noticed any significant cpu increase in Live 10. No matter if I use the internal synths or vst plugins. But I cannot speak for Macbook or Apple hardware in general as I am on a Windows 10 workstation.

W23 · Post by **W23** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:56 pm

One thing I noticed was adding some of the M4L stuff did hit my CPU but, if I kept adding more the CPU wouldn’t necessarily get any higher (but sometimes it would get pretty high like, 6O%) I assume this was because the other core opened up. I would keep moving forward. Just add tracks and effects until you get audio breakup and dropouts (saving FREQUENTLY), and then start freezing tracks. Live really works best as an audio playback device. Keep in mind that Simpler and Sampler both have LFOs, and are optimized to work in Live (though Simpler can take a bite out of your CPU, depending on warp mode). Sampler doesn’t warp but, you can warp a sample to your tempo, consolidate it, and do what you like with it, and Sampler has 3 LFOs that are freely assignable. M4L definitely can make things easier and faster but, I don’t know if I would really count on it to perform with. Another thing to think about is automation curves are pretty easy to draw (like you can draw a sine wave now) and manipulate and can be assigned to anything. Not as easy as just assigning a M4L LFO but, it can be copied and pasted and works pretty well too

Winstontaneous · Post by **Winstontaneous** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:17 pm

W23 wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:56 pm One thing I noticed was adding some of the M4L stuff did hit my CPU but, if I kept adding more the CPU wouldn’t necessarily get any higher...

I have the same experience. Also, I owned Bitwig 1.x (and test later versions regularly), but one of the reasons I got rid of Bitwig was high CPU/heat on my MacBook Pro with even minimal numbers of native effects/instruments/modulators. This seems to be a common issue with Mac users even still, not sure how Bitwig performs on Windows/Linux.

hangars liquides · Post by **hangars liquides** » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:32 pm

I could not imagine a performance without max for live added to live. It transforms the beast. Building your effect chain, morphing beyond a basic volume automation, with non linear parameter changes, making sfx per freq band, etc... once you get that level of control of anything, starting by the vst you load in, you can't go back.

Tj Shredder · Post by **Tj Shredder** » Wed May 01, 2019 5:38 am

I guess that M4L adds some overhead. And if you patch yourself you can waist CPU as much as you like. Not all devices are CPU friendly...
I have the full Max/MSP and Bitwig, Live never clicked with me...

DrGonzo · Post by **DrGonzo** » Wed May 01, 2019 6:52 am

Just wanted to add a personal thing about stability. I've never used M4L much. But yesterday I opened it up for the first time in about three years, and three clicks in I got a crash. I probably did something I shouldn't have, but still... I would have expected M4L to have matured beyond that level by now.

I'll give it a whirl in another three years

/C

quincy · Post by **quincy** » Wed May 01, 2019 7:51 am

Thanks for all the input. I suppose it was inevitable that I'd get a mixed response. I've read a lot of other comments on the interweb with people complaining about the CPU usage of the LFO so perhaps that's just a problem device. I'm a developer myself and it seems that there's likely to be some performance hit through the integration of 2 independent but complex bits of real-time audio software.

I also think there are some tell-tale signs of the limitations of the integration between the two system, for example the LFO cannot be applied as an amount of modulation like in Bitwig, t's basically taking full control of the target parameter and you can't use different amounts of a single LFO modulation to multiple targets. Frankly, it seems a bit outdated by modern standards when so many plugins and other platforms have much more sophisticated ways to add complex modulation. I think the upcoming 10.1 update, with the envelope shapes, envelope manipulation tools etc will be interesting and fill a gap in terms of complex modulation abilities.

I think I also have a small niggle about paying for all those plugins in Suite (the AAS rebranded ones) that haven't been updated for years. I guess Ableton's angle here is that most people would rather just pay for the "bundle" of Suite version and get all that extra content and plugins rather than buy each part of it piecemeal and then you've bought into the Ableton "ecosystem". Makes good business sense. I think it must be working because there are always lots of Live Suite licenses for sale and very rarely and Live Standard licenses, so people are deciding to drop the extra £200 and get the full package.

Regarding Bitwig - it's a very deep sound-design platform but the licensing model sticks in my throat a bit and if my MacBook is just going to melt down trying to render the graphics on my CPU then perhaps it won't be worth the trouble. I can buy Live Suite (or maybe Standard) and it'll get updates for several years, based on their history.

mcbpete · Post by **mcbpete** » Wed May 01, 2019 9:05 am

W23 wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:56 pm One thing I noticed was adding some of the M4L stuff did hit my CPU but, if I kept adding more the CPU wouldn’t necessarily get any higher

Yeah I get the same here - The first max plugin on my set will add a bit of a hit, but further devices only add a small incremental increase. I'm assuming it has to add all the Max back-end stuff to Ableton when any m4l devices are first instantiated

Max4Live performance