Wavetable Blowout: Massive X vs Avenger vs Serum vs Icarus vs Pigments...

[BONES]

Do things properly? WTF does that mean? Drag and drop modulation is about as intuitive, simple, and efficient as it gets. You prefer a more arduous workflow just for sake of complexity?

I'm going to assume you aren't really this stupid and if you actually bothered to engage your brain occasionally you'd work this out for yourself but I'll give you a couple of examples of how D'n'D is far more effort than other, established methods of doing things.

1. If I want to add an Insert effect to a channel in Studio One, I have to select the effects panel on the right edge of the screen, find the effect I want and then drag it all the way across to the left side of the screen where the mixer channels are OR I can click the little "+" icon on the mixer channel and add the effect without having to move my cursor or my eyes away from where I am working.

2. If I want to modulate cutoff with an envelope, I can drag from an envelope down to the Cutoff slider in Vital and then set a value OR I can raise the ADSR slider in the ARP Odyssey's filter section.

Now you tell me which is the better workflow in each of those instances.

I guess its just different people with different backgrounds, maybe if you come from the hardware synth world, or a lot of soft-synths modeled after hardware, this might seem a bit alien and awkward for you

OK, that's two really stupid things you've said in a row so it's at this time that I'd call you an idiot if I was allowed to. But just because I can't call you an idiot doesn't mean that you aren't one.

in the realm of software synthesis, workflows like these are the future, and there are reasons for that.

Let's hope not. There are more elegant alternatives, like the way Audio Damage synths do modulation, which the new version of Equator has also adopted. Again, it keeps you where you are working, not reaching all over the screen to make connections. I also like the way TRK-01 handles modulation assignments, although it is a lot more specialised, not something you'd be able to do on any old synth.

[KTlin]

I think the way Vital handles this right now is basically okay, though what sucks is that if you click something in the mod matrix, you get a pop-up window that, as far as I can tell, won't close unless you either select something or close the whole GUI. Normally windows like this go away when you click outside the windows, but this is not the case in Vital. So if you accidentally click a source and don't remember what was originally selected, you have to close and re-open the whole VST, because there's no indicator whatsoever of what the current source is.

What do you mean by "pop-up window"? Are you referring to the Mod Remap tab? Cause that's not a pop-up window. It's a tab that's always open underneath the mod matrix. At least that's the way it works in my case.

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mod.jpg

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Later edit:
Or maybe you're referring to the pop-up windows that appear when you click on the "Source" or "Destination" buttons? Like this:

mod2.jpg

If that's the pop-up window you're talking about, then it's strange because I can click wherever on the GUI and that window gets closed. It seems there's a bug on your version of Vital. Are you on Mac or Win?

[pdxindy]

I definitely can't fault Vital for not cluttering up the main GUI with a mod matrix, but just to be devil's advocate here, generally the quickest way of figuring out what's going on, modulation-wise, is looking at a matrix view. Mod matrix also makes it simple to assign sources that don't have tangible controls in the GUI (aftertouch, oscillator output when doing FM/AM, etc), though of course you can always do this with a right-click menu.

I think the way Vital handles this right now is basically okay, though what sucks is that if you click something in the mod matrix, you get a pop-up window that, as far as I can tell, won't close unless you either select something or close the whole GUI. Normally windows like this go away when you click outside the windows, but this is not the case in Vital. So if you accidentally click a source and don't remember what was originally selected, you have to close and re-open the whole VST, because there's no indicator whatsoever of what the current source is.

All the mod assignments are visible on the modulators. Hover over one of the mod circles and it shows the target plus depth value and it also highlights the depth on the target parameter.

In Vital, there are no hidden sources, they are all on the GUI.

The popup window goes away for me (Mac version) by clicking outside it.

[Jkist]

Do things properly? WTF does that mean? Drag and drop modulation is about as intuitive, simple, and efficient as it gets. You prefer a more arduous workflow just for sake of complexity?

I'm going to assume you aren't really this stupid and if you actually bothered to engage your brain occasionally you'd work this out for yourself but I'll give you a couple of examples of how D'n'D is far more effort than other, established methods of doing things.

1. If I want to add an Insert effect to a channel in Studio One, I have to select the effects panel on the right edge of the screen, find the effect I want and then drag it all the way across to the left side of the screen where the mixer channels are OR I can click the little "+" icon on the mixer channel and add the effect without having to move my cursor or my eyes away from where I am working.

2. If I want to modulate cutoff with an envelope, I can drag from an envelope down to the Cutoff slider in Vital and then set a value OR I can raise the ADSR slider in the ARP Odyssey's filter section.

Now you tell me which is the better workflow in each of those instances.

I guess its just different people with different backgrounds, maybe if you come from the hardware synth world, or a lot of soft-synths modeled after hardware, this might seem a bit alien and awkward for you

OK, that's two really stupid things you've said in a row so it's at this time that I'd call you an idiot if I was allowed to. But just because I can't call you an idiot doesn't mean that you aren't one.

in the realm of software synthesis, workflows like these are the future, and there are reasons for that.

Let's hope not. There are more elegant alternatives, like the way Audio Damage synths do modulation, which the new version of Equator has also adopted. Again, it keeps you where you are working, not reaching all over the screen to make connections. I also like the way TRK-01 handles modulation assignments, although it is a lot more specialised, not something you'd be able to do on any old synth.

I think your explanations are poor, but let me see if I can decipher. The way you talk about adding an effect is the exact same way you add an effect in vital. Either way, what you describe is purely subjective. Many would say they prefer one or the other, but I would wager I could do both methods with ease in the same amount of time. So not exactly some game changing workflow.

You act like moving your mouse and your eyes are such an incredibly tedious thing.

As for the second point, there are reasons you would want to be able to do it both ways. I agree the way you mentioned is technically faster, but a lot of the time when you do it that way you have no visual feedback of whats actually going on. That can be good, visual feedback can be distracting, but there are cases where I want that feedback. This depends on the particular flavor of synth of course. Either way, once again, its all preference. Lucky for you the synth is free, and its no loss to you if you don't like it, just stick with what you've been using and be happy.

The only other way to modulate that I might prefer is being able to just right click something and then select "modulate with" from a dropdown list. This is pretty quick and easy too, but both ways have their pros and cons.

[BONES]

I definitely can't fault Vital for not cluttering up the main GUI with a mod matrix, but just to be devil's advocate here, generally the quickest way of figuring out what's going on, modulation-wise, is looking at a matrix view.

I also dislike Mod Matrices and the best way of seeing what's going on is the way Pigments, HY Poly, Equator and others do it - by animating the controls.

[Dallas_Cashin]

I think the way Vital handles this right now is basically okay, though what sucks is that if you click something in the mod matrix, you get a pop-up window that, as far as I can tell, won't close unless you either select something or close the whole GUI. Normally windows like this go away when you click outside the windows, but this is not the case in Vital. So if you accidentally click a source and don't remember what was originally selected, you have to close and re-open the whole VST, because there's no indicator whatsoever of what the current source is.

[assistance]

The window you showed is what I was talking about, but bizarrely enough, I just opened Vital to take some screenshots and the issue had gone away completely. Not 100% sure what fixed it, I've been on the latest Windows version both then and now. I guess I'll chalk it up to a Turkey Day Miracle

All the mod assignments are visible on the modulators. Hover over one of the mod circles and it shows the target plus depth value and it also highlights the depth on the target parameter.

In Vital, there are no hidden sources, they are all on the GUI.

The popup window goes away for me (Mac version) by clicking outside it.

Yeah, but a (properly-done) mod matrix doesn't require playing a color-match Where's Waldo hunt or hovering over each parameter one at a time to figure out what the parameters are. Vital does about as good a job as any synth I've encountered at showing what's affecting what on the front panel, but even still, the matrix is a much more efficient overview, just by its nature.

Drag-and-drop is definitely my choice for making assignments, but mod matrices are likewise my choice for refreshing my memory and figuring out what's going on, and sometimes even for making small tweaks here and there (especially useful when you have two modulators affecting the same parameter).

I definitely can't fault Vital for not cluttering up the main GUI with a mod matrix, but just to be devil's advocate here, generally the quickest way of figuring out what's going on, modulation-wise, is looking at a matrix view.

I also dislike Mod Matrices and the best way of seeing what's going on is the way Pigments, HY Poly, Equator and others do it - by animating the controls.

Eh, animated controls are definitely nice too, but nothing beats the quick precision of glancing at the mod matrix. It's a fork and spoon situation, where ideally you have both.