Ableton Live 10 does not pass SysEx to VST Plugins

[subparuser]

[edit post to reflect true cause of issue]

Expert Sleepers / Silent Way doesn't gate SysEx, instead Ableton Live 10 fails to pass SysEx to VST plugins.

This has now become a Live / M4L topic as I believe I've resolved my issue as far as ES / SW is concerned.

That said, if anyone would like to help out in solving the outstanding issue of how to deal with the SysEx now I have ES-5 Controller loaded into M4L that'd be soopar, not subpar .

Thanks for your patience Os.

[/edit]



Hey all!

I have my ES gear up and running nicely, ES-3 into ES-5 into ESX-8MD - signals seem to get sent where they should, the correct port indicator LEDs flash etc. All this from Ableton Live 10.

Except SYSEX! The SW ES-5 Controller VST appears to be oblivious to SYSEX whether it gets generated by a M4L device on the same track (or sent from another track) . . . or when received from an external hardware controller. It simply will not pass it through to the hardware.

Any ideas?

[os]

I believe Live doesn't pass sysex to plug-ins. This is why the SW plug-ins (on macOS anyway) have their own virtual MIDI port.

[subparuser]

Okay - that rather buggers my whole setup. Is there any possibility to add the same feature to the Windows plugins? I know there aren't any virtual ports installed by the OS but can 3rd-party not perform the same job?

[os]

I don't know of any way to do this on Windows.

You could ask Ableton to fix Live to pass sysex.

[subparuser]

We're talking about the same Ableton right?

I mean . . . just checking, because you suggested I ask Ableton to fix their software. I think the last people who wanted them to do that ended up founding Bitwig as a workaround . . . and didn't bloody implement SysEx either.

Could I perhaps use M4L itself as a host for SW? I think I probably can - but M4L loses me sample-accuracy correct?

[os]

One's thing for sure - if you don't ask, they absolutely definitely won't fix it. If you ask, there's a chance they might, however small.

I don't know about sample accuracy in M4L. But if you're using sysex does sample accuracy really matter?

[whyterabbyt]

Since M4L devices for Live10 can send (or receive) SysEx, there might be a way round it with a custom M4L device, similar to some of the MIDI hardware editor devices now out there.

[subparuser]

That's probably true, for very small values of true! I doubt mine would be the first voice they've heard on the issue of SysEx (and generally parsimonious MIDI spec) but who knows. Another voice can't hurt.

Yeah actually, it matters as much as it does for any other MIDI realtime controls - I'm not talking about patch dumps but realtime SysEx for devices that use that in lieu of CCs. I'd very much like to sequence the operators of my FS1R with the same timing as the notes for example.

I can try some loopback tests on the iConnect to determine how tight it is and maybe feed a couple of MIDI sources into that before hitting the synth gear as a way to at least get the note and (usual suspects) CC data close to bang-on while merging SysEx in at the iConnect. It was sold on the promise of ultra low latency / jitter and fast processing so that may even be the case! I think they were claiming sub-millisecond at the time and if it's really that tight it should do the job and actually make the setup a little more flexible.

I'm sceptical about those claims tho'!

Bit of a shame really, I was hoping to avoid Windows MIDI shenanigans by sending the whole lot out via the audio system, service guaranteed - locked to the clock.

Since M4L devices for Live10 can send (or receive) SysEx, there might be a way round it with a custom M4L device, similar to some of the MIDI hardware editor devices now out there.

Well, I could try and host it within the device I'm testing it with now (iLovFS1R) and all that jazz. That was the first thing I thought of - was try and wrap the whole thing in M4L, but my understanding is that loses sample-accuracy? Perhaps my understanding is incorrect or I've misremembered something.

[subparuser]

Anyway, thanks for the prompt help Os - at least I know I'm not going mad or have a faulty unit, misconfig . . . whatever.

[subparuser]

So, the first roadblock I ran into is loading the specific plugin from within the SW shell. Tell a lie, the real first roadblock is not actually knowing much WTF I'm doing poking about in M4L to begin with - it's not a strength!

This was just the result of just loading the shell into the maxhelp as a test of the basic Max vst~ object. Someone with some skills could possibly put together a barebones little host / wrapper upon which to drop the ES-5 onto from the Live browser? Or can args be passed to the object?

Does it make sense in the first place, does M4L vst~ object pass SysEx to hosted plugins?

[os]

I'm afraid I have almost no experience of M4L.

[subparuser]

I assume the vst~ object is no different from that of the standalone Max, but that's just an assumption. What I can say with certainty is I can't just load the ES-5 Controller into the object as all it sees is the silentway shell.

Do you have any suggestions as to how I might proceed, or better yet fire up Max and see if you can (trivially) see a way? The maxhelp seems to point to the ability to accept args as a feature of the object and if that's a path to loading the specific sub-dll you'd be much better qualified to make the attempt than I.

I'm sure you probably feel this is Ableton's issue to fix but honestly, entire cottage industries have grown up around working around Live's shortcomings so I have no optimism in that direction. I'd really appreciate if you could investigate the feasibility of a simple maxpat vst shell so your kit can see SysEx in Live. I don't mean that in a snarky or demanding way, but that I really would appreciate the extra effort if you see fit and have the time etc.

Cheers!

[subparuser]

Shifting gear a little, I've managed to find the Max Externals, including the es5encoder~ which looks like it may be just the thing I need.

It loads into M4L just fine and sends its audio output to Live as expected, and if I hook a num up to an input I can make LEDs light up (on, stays on) according to some sense; 1 = first port, 2 = second, 4 = third, 8 = 4th, 16 = 5th . . . and so on, as per your vimeo vid and my expectations according to how the hardware is set up.

More good news, it sees SysEx.

This good news is tempered by the fact that any MIDI fed to it just randomly flashes LEDs across ports, fairly obviously because it's not how this is done! I'm out of inspiration and could do with some pointers on how - or if it's even possible to - use the es5encoder~ to accept MIDI in and spit out its encoded signal back out to Live.

The notion is premised on the es5encoder~ being pretty much analogous to the ES-5 Controller VST plugin. Correct me if I'm mistaken?

Thanks .

[os]

The external is basically the 'input to gates' section of the plug-in. It doesn't have the MIDI functionality.

[subparuser]

/deletes M4L attempt

Possible to provide the MIDI functionality as an external, or add it?

Ableton's official stance on SysEx seems to be if you need it, M4L handles it, not VST.