Rant: Power-computer-mongers

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Just a rant... either ignore me, support me, or refute me... ;)

In recent threads both here and at CM/FM forums, people have asked for recommendations on systems, which is something fairly common and something I actually rarely get bored of. I get to live vicariously through somebody's new purchase.

For me, somebody investing in a new computer could potentially look at an Athlon64 (for example) with a gig of RAM, reasonable hard drive, and whatever audio card they're happy with, and I see nothing wrong with that. Sure, there's 'trailing edge' technology that will do most of these people fine, but you know-- if you've got the money for the system, these are all specs that I think are reasonable.

But inevitably, people will offer advice that takes this already powerful machine up to the next level... the level that I think of as "tweaker 3-D shooter-head mode" (OK, I've never used those words, but it conveys what I think, I suppose. :D)

What the hell kind of music are people MAKING with their machines that they need 2GB+ RAM and the penultimately fastest consumer CPU (overclocked, for some)?? Thank god most K-v-R people are sensible enough about hard drives and graphics cards, or every time someone asked for a recommendation they'd be told to buy a monster gaming machine.

When I got into this, I remember ProRec had a "Roll Your Own" article, in which the budget-but-still powerful DAW being built was based on a 1.0gHz Duron processor with 512(256?)RAM and 2 40-gig hard drives.

Now, I know times have changed... but they haven't changed THAT much. 96k/24-bit (I admit, I actually stick to 44.1k/16-bit) audio still takes up the same amount of space, still takes the same number of cycles to process, and still sounds the same when it comes through your sound card.

What happened to a bit of planning and care? I guess if you want to open a new track for each new take, keep that track's VSTs active all the time, and never pay attention to composition, you could quickly run out of resources, but come on!

Obviously, there are people out there who actually need the juice. Serious composers with a Giga set-up and orchestral arrangements... pro studios that can't afford to f**k around with their clients' time... and even hobbyists who are particularly ambitious.

But I know people on this forum who are getting by with a PIII-700mHz and doing just fine, and being quite productive, indeed.

My advice to people buying or building a new DAW-- yes, get yourself some power. Like I said, even a machine that seems more powerful than you really need is still fine. I'm planning to get an over-powerful machine, myself. But when it gets time to add on little bits and pieces that the tweak-heads swear will give you phenomenally improved performance, at least consider that you might not need the extra gig of RAM, and support one of the fine software developers out there (particularly the independents) by buying a plug-in instead.

That's not really the ultimate point of this thread, but now that it's made, it doesn't seem like such a bad one. The ultimate point is-- don't believe all the crap people tell you, use a bit of common sense and make an educated decision... for every good bit of advice in a public forum, you're likely to get 2 dodgy-to-mediocre pieces, so be careful to sift through them.

Greg

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Amen.

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To an extent I agree with you; but on the other hand, having switched from a 1.3ghz P4 384mb RAM 80gb HD machine to a 3.0ghz P4 2gb RAM 330gb HD machine has made things infinitely easier. It all boils down to what you use your computer for.

I do all my work in FL, for instance, which has no freeze functions (I do use FXfreeze, though), and is CPU-hungry. Everything I do is software-based, from sampling to synthesis, and the synths I use are generally a bit heavy on CPU (especially when I have 4-5 instances in a project); fm7, Pro-53, Reaktor, Absynth, z3ta+, for instance. I usually sample up to about 300-500mb in soundfonts, and now that I have Kontakt and Kompakt, I can end up doubling that in no time with larger piano and guitar samples. 384mb RAM doesn't really cut it when a single piano sample gives you 'running out of memory' errors. And, of course, I also use excessive amounts of effects; usually in the neighborhood of 30-50 for a single song.

I pushed my old machine to the limit. I had smart disable for all the effects, increased buffer size, did everything I could to reduce background CPU and RAM usage. But I pushed it to the limit. And even this new machine is challenged by some of my recent projects (with a 2 minute wip of a trance song I'm working on, I'm up to 45% CPU usage without anything playing). So for me, having as much power as I could possibly afford was an absolute necessity. I could not stand having to wait 10 seconds for a VST to be located, not being able to preview projects without rendering, and not being able to load my favorite soundfonts with sfz without being told I was out of memory.

Of course, telling people to get a better video card is silly. I spent a whopping $51 on the video card for my new machine, and I probably could have done with 1/2 the power it offers.

The bottom line, though, is that the situation varies from person to person - as I said, to an extent I agree with you because it is ridiculous to simply recommend super-powerful machines to everyone that needs a new setup. If I was a Reason user, I probably would not have even needed to upgrade, because Reason is so remarkably CPU efficient. If I did a lot of recording, I probably would have gotten a cheaper processor and CPU, but invested in a better sound card and more hard drive space. But for me, a zealous FL and VST/DXi user, a monster machine is perfect.

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Here's a list of why I want a faster system: Trash, Ozone, Kontakt, & Tera 2.0. Those plugs suck up tons of CPU from my fairly decent system (P4 2.5 GHz 1 GB RAM), and in the case of Kontakt RAM and/or CPU depending if you DFD. Just in terms of effects, Trash & Ozone still take up a good 10-15% of my CPU on each instance even when there is nothing running through them. Naturally, since I want at least 2 or 3 instances of Ozone and ideally an instance of Trash for every track I sometimes have to make 3 or 4 project files of the same track with a progression from using VSTis and effects to audio files. Please don't tell me that I shouldn't want a faster computer. In an ideal world I should be able to finish a track with one or two project files and not the 4 as it's currently taking due to the constant swapping out of one set of plugs for another. Plus I have to keep several different rendered .wav files for each separate track which takes up mad HD space.

If I had the money, I would get a faster or a 2nd DAW to free up resources and complete tracks faster with less hassle of having to render and re-edit every time I hit my CPU ceiling.

ATA

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More power does mean more plug ins. I swithched from a 1.1 Ghz to 2 X 2.8 Ghz and I can really vouch for a small improvement in productivity.

Why 2 machines you may ask. Well for me it was very simple. (Please excuse the quotes in local currency.) A 2.8 P4 computer here did cost at the time (May this year) about R6,000, or about US$1,000. These are the slightly older generation machines I know. A new 64 bit machine AMD cost about R25,000 and a P4 3.2 cost about R16,000. It does not take much of a scientist to figure out that two machines which are not really old, but basically does the job, together with a bit of exta money to get them working together still worked out a lot cheaper than a latest-and-greatest 3.2 ghz and at the same time I get signifficantly better power.

Just in-case you wanted to know, the 2.4 Ghz computer was about R5,500, which is about US$100 cheaper than the 2.8 Ghz. Again, it does not take much to figure out that it would be a $100 wisely spent. What do I get for that $100 over and above the 400hz? That's Faster bus speed and faster memory. Faster bus speed will really only make a difference if I get any disc streaming samplers, but GPO will very soon have this. I have not tried it yet, but a can imagine disc streaming with a 1GB orchestral library just might get some benifit from the extra speed.

Please keep in mind that I am technologically intelectually totally disadvantaged.

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Yes for the most part your rite,,but,,consider alot of audio apps come with min. specs and recomended specs,which are usually much higher and thats still just to run that prog,,not with huge power hungry 3rd party plugs and rewire clients runnin.
Also every year devs are asking for higher min specs,,where is this going?,,ya might be better off safe than sorry if you can afford it..
Also ,now that everyone has a set top dvd and the media now sellin for 50 cents,24/96 may become very popular sooner than later.
You may also have a pci sound card,,but still want to record a 5 pc band..
I dunno,,,in a year or so when I'm ready to buy again I'll check back..

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Personally, I blame the vurtbox!




:roll:

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atomic_afro wrote:Here's a list of why I want a faster system: Trash, Ozone, Kontakt, & Tera 2.0. Those plugs suck up tons of CPU from my fairly decent system (P4 2.5 GHz 1 GB RAM), and in the case of Kontakt RAM and/or CPU depending if you DFD. Just in terms of effects, Trash & Ozone still take up a good 10-15% of my CPU on each instance even when there is nothing running through them. Naturally, since I want at least 2 or 3 instances of Ozone and ideally an instance of Trash for every track I sometimes have to make 3 or 4 project files of the same track with a progression from using VSTis and effects to audio files. Please don't tell me that I shouldn't want a faster computer. In an ideal world I should be able to finish a track with one or two project files and not the 4 as it's currently taking due to the constant swapping out of one set of plugs for another. Plus I have to keep several different rendered .wav files for each separate track which takes up mad HD space.

If I had the money, I would get a faster or a 2nd DAW to free up resources and complete tracks faster with less hassle of having to render and re-edit every time I hit my CPU ceiling.

ATA
Actually, you shouldn't want a faster computer. 2.5ghz and 1gb of ram should suit you fine. I was using similar plugins as you with a machine half that good, and I pulled through, for the most part. I didn't bounce anything, either. Besides, the latest processors are not even 1ghz faster than what you have now, and they cost $500+ (you'll also need a new motherboard, for another $100+). It's not really worth it, considering the nominal boost in performance you'll get from such a small upgrade. I would do fine with your setup.

I would suggest simply re-examining what synths you use; a Tera bass may be easily replicated with Synth1, for instance, and perhaps trying to overclock your current processor to squeeze more performance out of it.

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Lunch Money quoth Just a rant... either ignore me, support me, or refute me... ;)

Uh, okay. :)

For me, somebody investing in a new computer could potentially look at an Athlon64 (for example) with a gig of RAM, reasonable hard drive, and whatever audio card they're happy with, and I see nothing wrong with that.


Riiiight....

Sure, there's 'trailing edge' technology that will do most of these people fine, but you know-- if you've got the money for the system, these are all specs that I think are reasonable.

Well its not much of a spec, and depending on usage, not necessarily reasonable 'enough' for some people's needs...

But inevitably, people will offer advice that takes this already powerful machine up to the next level... the level that I think of as "tweaker 3-D shooter-head mode" (OK, I've never used those words, but it conveys what I think, I suppose. :D)

Unless they're throwing high-end 3D graphics in there, just about everything else for a top-flight DAW does overlap with a games-nutter machine

What the hell kind of music are people MAKING with their machines that they need 2GB+ RAM

Something with BFD, or Gigastudio, or anything with a lot of samples, perhaps?

and the penultimately fastest consumer CPU (overclocked, for some)??

Anything spectral, any high-end reverb, anything convolution, lots of polyphony in something like Rhino2, Tera2, Reaktor, or any of the 'big' complex synths? And no wish to bounce down...

Thank god most K-v-R people are sensible enough about hard drives and graphics cards, or every time someone asked for a recommendation they'd be told to buy a monster gaming machine.

I only recommend them for monster games. Like Doom3. Its pretty good, y'know. :)

When I got into this, I remember ProRec had a "Roll Your Own" article, in which the budget-but-still powerful DAW being built was based on a 1.0gHz Duron processor with 512(256?)RAM and 2 40-gig hard drives.

Aye, but when I were a lad, we had to hand-roll our own code with front-panel switches on a PDP-11 and yabber yabber yabber.

Computers get faster, soft synths and effects get more complex, people like new toys. And it still all costs less than a basic 8-track, drum-machine and guitar setup would have done when I was 20. Innit great?

Now, I know times have changed... but they haven't changed THAT much.

Yes, they have. Current Durons are nearly twice as fast as that, and top-end processors are 4 or more times faster, and coders take advantage of that to provide more of everything.

96k/24-bit (I admit, I actually stick to 44.1k/16-bit) audio still takes up the same amount of space, still takes the same number of cycles to process, and still sounds the same when it comes through your sound card.

space != horsepower

What happened to a bit of planning and care?

Nothing, but why should one have to compromise if one doesnt care to?

I guess if you want to open a new track for each new take, keep that track's VSTs active all the time, and never pay attention to composition, you could quickly run out of resources, but come on!

Perhaps if you habitually use 10-12 reverbs, convolution effects, spectral vocoders and some of the top-flight synths around on each composition, you could also run out of resources.

I do. I also bounce to disk, over and over again. But I look forward to the day when I dont necessarily have to...

Obviously, there are people out there who actually need the juice. Serious composers with a Giga set-up and orchestral arrangements... pro studios that can't afford to f**k around with their clients' time... and even hobbyists who are particularly ambitious.

Yup. And that's the point. One size does not fit all....

[ui]But I know people on this forum who are getting by with a PIII-700mHz and doing just fine, and being quite productive, indeed.[/i]

Indeed they are. But that doesnt mean nobody needs or uses

My advice to people buying or building a new DAW-- yes, get yourself some power.

But how do you quanitfy 'some'?

Like I said, even a machine that seems more powerful than you really need is still fine.

Oooh ta :)

I'm planning to get an over-powerful machine, myself.

My point!

But when it gets time to add on little bits and pieces that the tweak-heads swear will give you phenomenally improved performance, at least consider that you might not need the extra gig of RAM, and support one of the fine software developers out there (particularly the independents) by buying a plug-in instead.

But I already supported a bucketload of them. Thats why I need more and more grunt from my machine! :)

That's not really the ultimate point of this thread, but now that it's made, it doesn't seem like such a bad one. The ultimate point is-- don't believe all the crap people tell you, use a bit of common sense and make an educated decision...

True.


for every good bit of advice in a public forum, you're likely to get 2 dodgy-to-mediocre pieces, so be careful to sift through them.

Yup. :)
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."

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sounds like money's tight.


my sympathies :D

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HI

I wonder if my post for dual-Xeon users set this off?

I think people have a variety of reasons for choosing a new system but probably the deciding factor is finances.

In my case I would be prepared to pay the £2,000 to get the set-up that gives me the 'juice' to do the job; based on having a credit card that can cover the purchase!

Working method/planning as you say is up there as well; but that goes out of the window when a program comes out that you class as 'Essential' to your creativity which suckles on your system resources to the point of meltdown; this is the constant battle we face for being in a profession/hobby that uses software that invariably is a step ahead of the capabilities of the hardware that drives it.

Unlike the 'Hardware' days where you might have a computer simply for sequencing duties (and nothing else) things were less confused - you had several sound modules/sampler/rell to reel recorders or other recording medium and anything added would only put a strain on your midi chain!

Every enhancement to our recording demands, but in particular our software upgrades generally requires more 'juice' to power it, I think people that want to remain at the 'cutting edge' of software development and usage will by default have to expect that a constant updating of the hardware involved in driving that software, will be pretty mandatory.

What you need to consider as well is that most developer of cutting edge software will probably be quoting a performance based on a relatively high end set up, in other words I don't think that many developers are creating top flight products on (or for) underpowered systems.

I think people who are using primarily audio streaming are in a better position as this is much less CPU intensive, so there are distict and ovelapping needs ans arguments (as always!).

Flipper.

Flipper.

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I'm running a dual 2.0 G5/3.5 G RAM/ProTools LE rig and I cannot play back more than eight or nine tracks of audio if I have ANYTHING ReWired and I'm in 24bit/96kHz mode. With my previous machine (dual 500 G4) I couldn't even open the thing in 24/96 without crashing. I've got fast, clean drives and my machine is a dedicated recording machine...no e-mail, 302.11.anything, no bluetooth, no Spongebob Squarepants USB nightlite.. I NEVER use reverb plugs (never have..I have a nice sounding living room) and only three or four instances of compression. I print all other effects. I record in "destructive mode" because I don't like cleaning up the mess of a bunch of flubs.

And I need more power!!! I'm constantly having to think up workarounds to save power.

Partly I blame software designers who can't believe that many people have dual processor machines. When I go to the "real" studio, we record in 24/192 and everyone hears the difference. If the world settles on 24/192 for the next few years as the "standard", are all apps going to go along?

On the upside, I think that maybe the next generation or two of CPU's and DAW's will finally begin to be up to speed. Hopefully.

I may have spent eight thousand dollars on my home recording rig, but my neighbor has a boat that cost more than four times that much, and he doesn't even use it once a month!!!

:clown: Max
hey buddy, can you spare some memory?

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for once i find myself not agreeing with the rabbyt ...

... to provide a little balance ...

... im typing this on a 3 year old amd mobile duron 850 laptop with 256Mb RAM and a single 20Gb hard drive ... this is also my main music machine and with some care and forethought (and yes - jusicious use of rendering and freeze) its more than capable of doing what i want audio-wise ...

... having said that i am awaiting delivery of a new laptop that is far from cutting edge but should provide WAY more power than i actually NEED (3.2p4 / 1Gb RAM / twin 40Gb hard drives) ...

... sure all this extra power WILL no doubt get eaten up ... but in my case it will be used to make the same things easier and quicker rather than doing a load of new stuff i couldnt previously manage ...

... as with everything in the world peoples mileage varies though

slainte :ud: rob

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I guess my main point was missed, by some, though others seem to have gotten it: I'm referring to the relative newcomer who asks what they "need" in a machine and are basically given a fantasy list which addresses an individual respondent's personal desires and doesn't take into account the needs of the original poster.

I'm not talking about the user who has experience and has finally gotten to the point where their machine just won't cut it, despite all their organization and planning. I'm talking about newbies and people who are more fascinated by the technology than with actually making music.

It just pisses me off when what seems to be a fairly clear question: "I'm just getting started, what can I get by on?" gets unecessarily twisted. Inevitably somebody will push each aspect to the next level:

-"An Athlon 2500+ for $60 will give you a good system to start out with" turns into "Nah, I wouldn't go with anything less than a P4 3.2 or an Athlon64 these days."

-"Two modest hard drives will give you enough audio streaming power for all but the most intensive disc-streaming applications." turns into "True, but with the price of hard drives these days, you might as well go dual SATA at 200 Gigs" (Better make sure you have a motherboard that supports SATA).

-"512 MB RAM is a good baseline" has turned into "1 GB RAM is sort of a minimum today... better make it 2GB to be safe". Does anybody here have any idea how little the diminished return is from going from 1GB to 2? Apparently not. You won't get ANY system performance, though you will obviously be able to load more samples into RAM.

-Video cards, I admit, people usually make sense with their recommendations around here, though when it comes to monitors, that's another story:

-"Get a decent-sized monitor, or two if you can afford them" turns into "Gotta be LCD. CRT creates too much interference."

Hopefully I'm being clear this time... in each of the above examples, performance benefits can DEFINITELY be found in the 'new' recommendation! But does this particular user need those benefits? There are more efficient and free ways of getting more performance out of your machine. For example, instead of keeping 3 instances of sfz open, each with a huge sample bank, just render to audio! No way would I want my RAM cluttered up with 600 megs worth of samples, even if I HAD 2GB!

At the end of the day, the original poster is being sent away with the impression that they need to spend a lot of money to make music, and that their system will "suck" unless they follow everyone's recommendations. A nice, powerful $1,000 system turns into a $1,800 system, which is nearly double the price...! Each recommendation on its own won't break the bank, but you have to add them all up.

Sickle666: Yeah, I AM broke <grin>. But it gives me a bit of perspective on the value of money. When I have enough of it, I'll get a new system, but I'll also buy smart so that some of my money can go to Kjaerhus (whose classic line has made my digital recording life much much richer), Smex, and others (don't want to make an actual list and leave people out). If we all did that, our favourite independent developers might be able to afford more upgrades THEIR system, too. Many of them are using technology that wouldn't be recommended as the "beginner" system anymore.

Greg

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pHz quoth for once i find myself not agreeing with the rabbyt ...


...and then...
... as with everything in the world peoples mileage varies though

Which is pretty much what I said. :)

What I was effectively disagreeing with was LM's assertion that folk dont need ubergrunty machines. Some people might, and the only way to know when they ask is to find out what they're doing and want to do...

Anyways, I did sorta agree with his point but he wanted people to refute it so I did. ;)
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."

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