Where to start for Jazz
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- KVRist
- 423 posts since 8 Mar, 2008 from Berlin
Here is a website where a person analyses and compares the solos on straight no chaser from the Miles Davis album Milestones
http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-pi ... jazz-solo/
http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-pi ... jazz-solo/
my music:
soundcloud.com/septimon-band
blend.io/septimon
soundcloud.com/septimon-band
blend.io/septimon
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- KVRist
- 82 posts since 8 Apr, 2020
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Ok, you’ve landed on Cm, key of C minor but it’s not final. To keep the harmony moving you can decide, eg., Cm7 being ii7 of Bb you may now proceed to V7 of Bb, which may also be temporary, ie., Bbm7 is ii7 of Ab. So a secondal sequence accrues.
Tonicization is pretending any chord is, for purposes of procedure, the tonic; in jazz practice this is typically locating the ii of said chord & the V of the chord, in order to promote more drive internally.
(secondary function)
Let’s say the original is I, vi, ii, V, I. The procedure is do the ii-V of vi, of ii, of V.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
What do you mean by Cm7 is ii7 of Bb.are you talking about Bb major or minor? And I don't get the last example.if you just clarify it a little bitjancivil wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 5:36 pmOk, you’ve landed on Cm, key of C minor but it’s not final. To keep the harmony moving you can decide, eg., Cm7 being ii7 of Bb you may now proceed to V7 of Bb, which may also be temporary, ie., Bbm7 is ii7 of Ab. So a secondal sequence accrues.
Tonicization is pretending any chord is, for purposes of procedure, the tonic; in jazz practice this is typically locating the ii of said chord & the V of the chord, in order to promote more drive internally.
(secondary function)
Let’s say the original is I, vi, ii, V, I. The procedure is do the ii-V of vi, of ii, of V.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
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- KVRian
- 1274 posts since 9 Mar, 2008 from netherlands
I don’t know if this has been mentioned....
While it’s extremely helpful And probably very important to understand the harmonic foundation of jazz It’s also a good idea to think of what context they are put in. If you have been a modern EDM oriented producer/composer you will probably be interested in taking a more contemporary take on the genre.
Here’s a couple of very talented musicians and groups combining certain elements of jazz mixed with electronics and production - not too way out but certainly interesting:
Snarky Puppy - Kind of contemporary big band
Jacob Collier - A master of harmony
Laura Mvula - first album. Pop but with some interesting light jazzy elements
Moses Sumney - Fantastic mix of contemporary soul and jazz with incredible arrangements and production
Kendrick Lamar - The ‘To Pimp A Butterfly’ album is an amazing mix of hip hop and jazz elements
I’m sure there’s a lot more out there that I don’t know but I found these artists very helpful to understand how some musicians create contemporary using some jazz elements..
Have fun... You are about to enter a wonderland of harmonic colors:)
While it’s extremely helpful And probably very important to understand the harmonic foundation of jazz It’s also a good idea to think of what context they are put in. If you have been a modern EDM oriented producer/composer you will probably be interested in taking a more contemporary take on the genre.
Here’s a couple of very talented musicians and groups combining certain elements of jazz mixed with electronics and production - not too way out but certainly interesting:
Snarky Puppy - Kind of contemporary big band
Jacob Collier - A master of harmony
Laura Mvula - first album. Pop but with some interesting light jazzy elements
Moses Sumney - Fantastic mix of contemporary soul and jazz with incredible arrangements and production
Kendrick Lamar - The ‘To Pimp A Butterfly’ album is an amazing mix of hip hop and jazz elements
I’m sure there’s a lot more out there that I don’t know but I found these artists very helpful to understand how some musicians create contemporary using some jazz elements..
Have fun... You are about to enter a wonderland of harmonic colors:)
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
Why the fifth of the chord is omited?Septimon wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 3:10 pmpremodern music is based on the classical cadence: predominant (IV), dominant (V) tonic (I)
in the key of C: this is F,G,C. you can consider the iim as well as IV as predominant, so ii - V - I is considered the Jazz cadence (stronger root motion than IV V I)
Jazz composers and musicians tend to seek for more tension, this leads to the concept of reharmonisation. Chords are changed to others that "fit" but produce more tension: for example flat five (tritonus) substitution: Any V7b5 chord is a rearrangement of the notes of a doninant seventh a tritone away: V7b5 = bII7b5 : G7b5 (G,B,Db,F) = Db7b5 (Db,F,G,B). Since the fifth of a chord is often omitted this relationship holds for all dominant sevenths. Any dominant seventh chord can be replaced by the dominant seventh a tritone away.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
Does the ii-v tonicization always has to be iim7b5 & V7b9? Or I could use any ii m(e.g m7,m9,m11) & V7
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
Thanks a lot.I'm actually coming from edm scenekelvyn wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 10:53 am I don’t know if this has been mentioned....
While it’s extremely helpful And probably very important to understand the harmonic foundation of jazz It’s also a good idea to think of what context they are put in. If you have been a modern EDM oriented producer/composer you will probably be interested in taking a more contemporary take on the genre.
Here’s a couple of very talented musicians and groups combining certain elements of jazz mixed with electronics and production - not too way out but certainly interesting:
Snarky Puppy - Kind of contemporary big band
Jacob Collier - A master of harmony
Laura Mvula - first album. Pop but with some interesting light jazzy elements
Moses Sumney - Fantastic mix of contemporary soul and jazz with incredible arrangements and production
Kendrick Lamar - The ‘To Pimp A Butterfly’ album is an amazing mix of hip hop and jazz elements
I’m sure there’s a lot more out there that I don’t know but I found these artists very helpful to understand how some musicians create contemporary using some jazz elements..
Have fun... You are about to enter a wonderland of harmonic colors:)
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
ii7 of Bb minor is C Eb Gb Bb. ii7 of Bb is C Eb G Bb. The point is “ii of __”, either way. You must be able to identify these things immediately as a prerequisite to jazz.
(I would never simply write “Bb” for Bb minor.)
Basis is I vi ii V. These are in bold, below.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
with a ii and V placed before them, as though each of the four was “I”, ie., tonicized. To talk more explicitly we’d say ii of vi, V of vi etc.
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
The difference between ii or V with a perfect fifth vs diminished (flat) fifth is style-bound, the flat five first happens ca 1947.
A defining feature of the bebop school of thought. Another reason is more tension.
A defining feature of the bebop school of thought. Another reason is more tension.
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
So, I wasn’t omitting the fifth in my examples. However, omitting perfect fifths is not only common but a feature/not a bug. Both guitarists and pianists do it. Actually the P fifth is kind of thick texturally for the taller extensions (eg., 9th and so on).
EG (these are chords, vertical constructs, bottom to top):
E D G A; Eb Db G ‘A‘; D C F G; Db Cb F ‘G’; C Bb Eb F; ‘B A D E’ (Cb Bbb Ebb Fb)
ii7(11) - bII7(#11) of D, then of C, then of Bb
the fifths of the dominant chords (bII7 is given) may be considered as missing, or we may consider the alternate names (flat five substitute principle), ie., V7, use the flat five.
IE: the second chord listed is technically both Eb7 and A7.
(Albeit “bII” is specified, as more normal due to the voicing there.)
The takeaway is, Eb7(#11) and A7b5 both function as dominant of D or D minor.
This illustration combines the “i is the new ii”, flat five principle, and omitting P5 at least as pertains to a m7. Modern jazz kind of prefers a dominant flat five, aesthetically.
Yes, this is complex. It has to be; this is what you’re in for. But to *start*, get your recognition of chords up to speed. For you, not being an instrumentalist, this means recognizing names and types by sight, and by ear.
You could clarify what your goals are. You have to have an instrument to do jazz.
This is going to fly by you right now, but I’m giving a condensed presentation of a whole thing.
EG (these are chords, vertical constructs, bottom to top):
E D G A; Eb Db G ‘A‘; D C F G; Db Cb F ‘G’; C Bb Eb F; ‘B A D E’ (Cb Bbb Ebb Fb)
ii7(11) - bII7(#11) of D, then of C, then of Bb
the fifths of the dominant chords (bII7 is given) may be considered as missing, or we may consider the alternate names (flat five substitute principle), ie., V7, use the flat five.
IE: the second chord listed is technically both Eb7 and A7.
(Albeit “bII” is specified, as more normal due to the voicing there.)
The takeaway is, Eb7(#11) and A7b5 both function as dominant of D or D minor.
This illustration combines the “i is the new ii”, flat five principle, and omitting P5 at least as pertains to a m7. Modern jazz kind of prefers a dominant flat five, aesthetically.
Yes, this is complex. It has to be; this is what you’re in for. But to *start*, get your recognition of chords up to speed. For you, not being an instrumentalist, this means recognizing names and types by sight, and by ear.
You could clarify what your goals are. You have to have an instrument to do jazz.
This is going to fly by you right now, but I’m giving a condensed presentation of a whole thing.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon May 25, 2020 11:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
at downvoting me giving the majority of my morning to this.
beyond pathetic. OMFG a total fuckng schlemiel doesn’t like me. express yo self, do, tho.
go fight about plugins FFS, stay in your lane.
beyond pathetic. OMFG a total fuckng schlemiel doesn’t like me. express yo self, do, tho.
go fight about plugins FFS, stay in your lane.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
I can't believe someone did that . What's wrong with these people.are they jelous or what that you possess this vast knowledge regarding music.You've been the one of the best resourceful person.Keep doing what you're doing.and don't give a shit about those pathetic persons.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
Questions:jancivil wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 5:33 pmii7 of Bb minor is C Eb Gb Bb. ii7 of Bb is C Eb G Bb. The point is “ii of __”, either way. You must be able to identify these things immediately as a prerequisite to jazz.
(I would never simply write “Bb” for Bb minor.)
Basis is I vi ii V. These are in bold, below.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
with a ii and V placed before them, as though each of the four was “I”, ie., tonicized. To talk more explicitly we’d say ii of vi, V of vi etc.
1)Is tritone substitution & flat five substitution the same thing?
2) In the last tonicized chord( G7) why did you use Am7 and not Am7b5?is it because dominant chord has major triad in it?so the ii of G is a minor chord
3)Can tonicization be done other than ii-v progression?
4)Can I do jazz progressions in other modes? will even if so will it sound jazzy?
Last edited by msf sadib on Tue May 26, 2020 10:02 am, edited 4 times in total.