Thanks Roger for being your unique self!LinnStrument: Playing without looking at hands (Sightreading)
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- KVRist
- 137 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
Agreed!
Thanks for the nice reply Roger! That background helps a lot. I'm extra grateful for the 3D files. My calipers only extend to 150mm, so I was having trouble getting accurate measurements of the larger features on LinnStrument.
I already have a spare play surface so I'll start playing with the coloring. The silicone or urethane coating makes it tricky for color to stick. I tested a pen, marker, and acrylic paint today. They all rubbed off under a damp finger after drying for two hours.
My 3D printer is broken at the moment but I'm working on fixing it to try different bump shapes.
Edit: @John and Dirk, I agree that people can use practice to rely less on tactility, but I still think making the LinnStrument easier to play is a win all around. It'll be more accessible for noobies/tactile learners and experts can use the same practice time to get even better.
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- KVRist
- 137 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
I 3D printed shapes to test the feel of the bumps.
https://imgur.com/a/UM2QPKe
Currently, the silicone sheet has 1.5mm thick gaps + 0.5mm thick pads. Roger suggested to keep the total thickness at 2.0mm max. So if the bumps get taller than 0.5mm that would take away thickness from the gaps which I assume adds some risk of the rubber tearing when peeling from the mold.
I printed 0.5mm, 1.0mm, and 1.5mm thick bumps with an arc profile. 0.5mm would represent the lowest risk option and the risk goes up from there.
When I rest my hand across the 0.5mm version, the bumps are so gentle it's hard to feel the rows as a whole. However, if I mentally focus on one finger, it is pretty easy to find the Y-center of the current pad by feel. I think it's pretty promising.
With 1.0mm, I can start to feel entire rows with my hand. At 1.5mm, it's almost too obvious, I wonder if 1.5mm bumps would impact Y-expression
.
Sorry my printer is not working great right now so the prints aren't pretty. I gave them a quick white spraypaint to improve visibility of the bumps. If you want to try printing them yourself here are the files.
https://www.prusaprinters.org/prints/82 ... -bump-test
https://imgur.com/a/UM2QPKe
Currently, the silicone sheet has 1.5mm thick gaps + 0.5mm thick pads. Roger suggested to keep the total thickness at 2.0mm max. So if the bumps get taller than 0.5mm that would take away thickness from the gaps which I assume adds some risk of the rubber tearing when peeling from the mold.
I printed 0.5mm, 1.0mm, and 1.5mm thick bumps with an arc profile. 0.5mm would represent the lowest risk option and the risk goes up from there.
When I rest my hand across the 0.5mm version, the bumps are so gentle it's hard to feel the rows as a whole. However, if I mentally focus on one finger, it is pretty easy to find the Y-center of the current pad by feel. I think it's pretty promising.
With 1.0mm, I can start to feel entire rows with my hand. At 1.5mm, it's almost too obvious, I wonder if 1.5mm bumps would impact Y-expression
.Sorry my printer is not working great right now so the prints aren't pretty. I gave them a quick white spraypaint to improve visibility of the bumps. If you want to try printing them yourself here are the files.
https://www.prusaprinters.org/prints/82 ... -bump-test
Last edited by TigerBalm on Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 624 posts since 12 Sep, 2007
That's stunning visually, very cool, yeah those tall ones look like mountains from the side.
Good on you for moving the concept forward so quickly.
Now I see some of the 3d printer attraction, just wish my wallet was as willing.
Good on you for moving the concept forward so quickly.
Now I see some of the 3d printer attraction, just wish my wallet was as willing.
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- KVRAF
- 2490 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Hi Tigerbalm,
The reason I suggested keeping the total thickness under 2mm is not related to tearing when removing from the mold, but rather because a thicker playing surface will be less sensitive to light touches. This is because with more silicone between your finger and the touch sensor below, the force of your finger is spread out over a wider area and therefore less force is directed at the center of touch.
A total thickness of 2.5mm isn't going to make a dramatic reduction in the sensitivity. You can learn how much difference by buying a 1/32" (.8mm) thick silicone sheet (lowest durometer available) online and laying it on top of LinnStrument's normal playing surface, then comparing the difference in sensitivity.
The reason I suggested keeping the total thickness under 2mm is not related to tearing when removing from the mold, but rather because a thicker playing surface will be less sensitive to light touches. This is because with more silicone between your finger and the touch sensor below, the force of your finger is spread out over a wider area and therefore less force is directed at the center of touch.
A total thickness of 2.5mm isn't going to make a dramatic reduction in the sensitivity. You can learn how much difference by buying a 1/32" (.8mm) thick silicone sheet (lowest durometer available) online and laying it on top of LinnStrument's normal playing surface, then comparing the difference in sensitivity.
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- KVRAF
- 2490 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Good luck!
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- KVRist
- 137 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
https://imgur.com/a/0wmbN1m
Unfortunately I ran out of plastic while printing the full size mold.
Luckily I had already made a smaller mold so I tried that and it worked quite well. The silicone released easily and the detail was captured. I oriented the 3d print lines along the left right direction so they don’t interfere with pitch slides.
Interestingly these 1mm tall rubber molded bumps feel about as pronounced as 0.5mm tall 3d printed bumps. Not sure if that’s due to the reduced stiffness of the rubber or maybe some shrinkage. This is much softer than the LinnStrument rubber. I didnt find harder rubber in my quick search.
More plastic arrives late this week so I can make a full sheet.
Unfortunately I ran out of plastic while printing the full size mold.
Luckily I had already made a smaller mold so I tried that and it worked quite well. The silicone released easily and the detail was captured. I oriented the 3d print lines along the left right direction so they don’t interfere with pitch slides.
Interestingly these 1mm tall rubber molded bumps feel about as pronounced as 0.5mm tall 3d printed bumps. Not sure if that’s due to the reduced stiffness of the rubber or maybe some shrinkage. This is much softer than the LinnStrument rubber. I didnt find harder rubber in my quick search.
More plastic arrives late this week so I can make a full sheet.
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- KVRian
- 624 posts since 12 Sep, 2007
I've got to say that is quite cool looking.
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- KVRist
- 137 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
I finally made a whole sheet with speed bumps! I’m biased but I really think the bumps help you stay on track when sliding between notes. You probably lose some precision with Y expression though.
Here is an album with more process photos
https://imgur.com/a/NH2XWIJ
And a video of me playing on the bumps. This music was originally written by Connor Golden.
https://youtu.be/fNgSk4SvSWk
On Monday I’m going to buy some firmer and hopefully less sticky rubber. If I make a new mold I need to add the air vent holes back in. You can see tons of bubbles got trapped.
Here is an album with more process photos
https://imgur.com/a/NH2XWIJ
And a video of me playing on the bumps. This music was originally written by Connor Golden.
https://youtu.be/fNgSk4SvSWk
On Monday I’m going to buy some firmer and hopefully less sticky rubber. If I make a new mold I need to add the air vent holes back in. You can see tons of bubbles got trapped.
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- KVRAF
- 2490 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Very nice, Tigerbalm, and kudos for your effort.
I agree that a harder silicone will help a little because it will be less gooey. I use a 40 durometer silicone, largely because silicone vendors won't use anything softer in production due to ripping when taken out of the heat mold. You don't have that problem because your silicone cures at room temperature, which would be too slow and expensive for production.
However, even a harder silicone will be sticky with pitch slides. The production surface is coated with a matte finish polyurethane, but it must be applied with precision in an air-filter clean room. You could try a spray can of polyurethane but I doubt you'll be pleased with the results.
One thing I'd suggest is mixing a white pigment into the silicone in order to diffuse the LED light. That's what I do in the stock surface.
If you have any specific questions, email me at the support address and I can give you more detailed answers.
I agree that a harder silicone will help a little because it will be less gooey. I use a 40 durometer silicone, largely because silicone vendors won't use anything softer in production due to ripping when taken out of the heat mold. You don't have that problem because your silicone cures at room temperature, which would be too slow and expensive for production.
However, even a harder silicone will be sticky with pitch slides. The production surface is coated with a matte finish polyurethane, but it must be applied with precision in an air-filter clean room. You could try a spray can of polyurethane but I doubt you'll be pleased with the results.
One thing I'd suggest is mixing a white pigment into the silicone in order to diffuse the LED light. That's what I do in the stock surface.
If you have any specific questions, email me at the support address and I can give you more detailed answers.
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- KVRist
- 137 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
Thank you for the extra background roger. For some reason I thought you were using 90A but 40A makes a lot more sense. Also, thanks again for sharing the CAD file earlier in this thread, that helped a lot.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 5 Aug, 2020
Oh wow. Can I just say, I *really* like the look of that.
Although I must say, after playing for almost two years now (still badly, but less so each day), one really does get better at judging pad leaps by muscle memory (and a bit of peripheral vision). But I also think precision might go up another notch if the surface had more tactile features.
What I'm saying is: If you ever make more of those surfaces than you have Linnstruments, I'd be interested in taking one off you. I'm very curious what it feels like to play.
Although I must say, after playing for almost two years now (still badly, but less so each day), one really does get better at judging pad leaps by muscle memory (and a bit of peripheral vision). But I also think precision might go up another notch if the surface had more tactile features.
What I'm saying is: If you ever make more of those surfaces than you have Linnstruments, I'd be interested in taking one off you. I'm very curious what it feels like to play.
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- KVRist
- 137 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
I'm glad you're excited wldmr. I'd love to make some others for folks here, and get their input on if this improves their LinnStrument experience. If it's OK I would charge a few dozen dollars for the materials and shipping (not calculated yet). I think the speedbump tactility further differentiates this from an iPad app like GeoShred. Do you use a 128 or 200?
I want to clarify that this is an experiment only. It won't have the professional feel of the official surface, and modding your LinnStrument carries a risk of damaging it (see below).
I found a bug after a few days where notes will get stuck in the on position, it has something to do with the sticky rubber tugging on the sensor. At first it was a minor annoyance while playing but it became a bigger issue when some of the settings button got stuck on. If those buttons are on during boot the linnstrument resets. I fixed it adjusting the rubber to relieve the tension.
I think that instead of sharing a full replacement play surface, I would make a smaller sheet that you stick on top of the existing surface, inside the border created by the steel top plate. This would remove the risk of my accessory damaging people's LinnStruments. There might be a reduction in responsiveness by having more rubber in the Z stack though, I'll check back in when I try it.
I want to clarify that this is an experiment only. It won't have the professional feel of the official surface, and modding your LinnStrument carries a risk of damaging it (see below).
I found a bug after a few days where notes will get stuck in the on position, it has something to do with the sticky rubber tugging on the sensor. At first it was a minor annoyance while playing but it became a bigger issue when some of the settings button got stuck on. If those buttons are on during boot the linnstrument resets. I fixed it adjusting the rubber to relieve the tension.
I think that instead of sharing a full replacement play surface, I would make a smaller sheet that you stick on top of the existing surface, inside the border created by the steel top plate. This would remove the risk of my accessory damaging people's LinnStruments. There might be a reduction in responsiveness by having more rubber in the Z stack though, I'll check back in when I try it.
