I can toggle between -10dB and +4dB for my inputs on my echo mia audiocard. However, I don't really understand what the difference is and why I would choose one over the other. When I set it to -10dB my levels are a lot hotter. Can anyone fill me in on what these mean in terms of recording and why I would choose one over the other.
thanks
sluggo
audio card record levels: -10db or +4db
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- KVRian
- 690 posts since 31 May, 2002 from chez moi
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- KVRAF
- 8749 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Most of the time you'd use -10. Almost all h/w synth outputs are at -10dB. Many h/w FX units will have a choice of -10 and +4 though. Most budget mixers' outputs are at -10 also, but the more expensive you get, then mixers start to have balanced in/outs.
So it all depends on what gear you're inputting to the soundcard. If it's synths, then leave it at -10. If it's h/w FX/dynamics etc, then usually -10 also, but you might benefit by using +4 if they have the option. If it's a budget mixer such as a Behringer, Spirit, low end Mackie etc, then also -10 will be the setting.
Balanced (+4) to cut a long story short, is to reduce unwanted noise from RF interference etc. You can use +4 on unbalanced outputs, but generally you'll just get a poorer signal, and need to boost so much that it's impractical.
The long and short of it is that "pro" gear tends to use +4, budget uses -10. So for most of us mere mortals, -10 is the setting to use. Balanced doesn't really have that much use unless you're using long leads and have interference from whatever source either within your studio or from outside. If you use leadless gear like radio mics or live next to an industrial estate or transmitter, then balanced would become a consideration. But if as I suspect, you're mainly recording from synths and/or budget FX boxes, then set it at -10 and ignore it.
If you do get interference, but only have gear with -10 outputs, then try using shorter leads, don't have them coiled up (can't remember the physics of it, but coiled up leads can act as aerials), don't run audio/midi leads parallel with mains leads (get them to cross perpendicularly) and keep leads away from monitors, TVs etc.
Short answer... -10dB
So it all depends on what gear you're inputting to the soundcard. If it's synths, then leave it at -10. If it's h/w FX/dynamics etc, then usually -10 also, but you might benefit by using +4 if they have the option. If it's a budget mixer such as a Behringer, Spirit, low end Mackie etc, then also -10 will be the setting.
Balanced (+4) to cut a long story short, is to reduce unwanted noise from RF interference etc. You can use +4 on unbalanced outputs, but generally you'll just get a poorer signal, and need to boost so much that it's impractical.
The long and short of it is that "pro" gear tends to use +4, budget uses -10. So for most of us mere mortals, -10 is the setting to use. Balanced doesn't really have that much use unless you're using long leads and have interference from whatever source either within your studio or from outside. If you use leadless gear like radio mics or live next to an industrial estate or transmitter, then balanced would become a consideration. But if as I suspect, you're mainly recording from synths and/or budget FX boxes, then set it at -10 and ignore it.
If you do get interference, but only have gear with -10 outputs, then try using shorter leads, don't have them coiled up (can't remember the physics of it, but coiled up leads can act as aerials), don't run audio/midi leads parallel with mains leads (get them to cross perpendicularly) and keep leads away from monitors, TVs etc.
Short answer... -10dB
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 690 posts since 31 May, 2002 from chez moi
Interesting. So +4dB is balanced.
I've been recording my vinyl lately. My mixer (ie turntable mixer) has balanced outputs and I purposely made a pair of balanced cables because I have a 15' run from the mixer to my computer. However, I have been using the -10dB setting on my audiocard.
It sounds to me that in this scenario I want to use +4db. When I use this setting, if the signal coming from the mixer is -6db, the recording level on my computer is much lower. ie the +4db attenuates the signal. Is this a problem?
Alternatively, the mixer has a rca rec output that I could use. I was opting for the main out because it was balanced though.
thanks
sluggo
I've been recording my vinyl lately. My mixer (ie turntable mixer) has balanced outputs and I purposely made a pair of balanced cables because I have a 15' run from the mixer to my computer. However, I have been using the -10dB setting on my audiocard.
It sounds to me that in this scenario I want to use +4db. When I use this setting, if the signal coming from the mixer is -6db, the recording level on my computer is much lower. ie the +4db attenuates the signal. Is this a problem?
Alternatively, the mixer has a rca rec output that I could use. I was opting for the main out because it was balanced though.
thanks
sluggo
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- KVRist
- 135 posts since 15 Oct, 2002 from North Carolina
Sluggo, Sounds like you really want to use -10.... if you're getting low levels when recording at +4, you're going to get a LOT worse S/N ratio.... balanced vs. unbalanced isn't going to make much difference with 15' run, more important if you're running 100 feet through a large recording facility... IMHO naturally! Good luck. John
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- KVRAF
- 8749 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Yeah...15' isn't very long, so unless you really notice interference at -10 input, then balanced won't really have any appreciable benefit. You can still use the +4 setting on your card for the balanced output, but you may not be able to boost the signal enough to be practical. If you do use the balanced option, then simply increase the volume output from your mixer and/or boost the input at the card's mixer page (if it has one) or within your host. For example, I use an Aardvark card, which has it's own mixer page; If I wanted to use balanced, then I'd simply flick to this page, switch it to +4 then boost up the input knob by a few dB over the standard 0dB...then I've still got my host's record input (which has an extra 6dB or so of boost).
Or another way is h/w...it may not apply to you, but I've got a couple of comps that can switch between -10 and +4 ...so I'd maybe route the turntable into one of those, then use the comp front panel to boost the signal.
To be honest, I've rarely used balanced in/outs. Many of my h/w rack units have the option, and I used to have a mixer that could be set to all balanced in/outs, but I didn't use it that way...I just didn't have interference to warrant spending the extra on the cables. Also, as almost all synths use -10, I also never saw the point.
As for RCA input - I don't use turntables, but I do know that the older ones I used to have needed earthing (which you used to be able to do with the amp) Unless you're positive whether the RCA output also requires an earth lead or not, then I'd be wary about soing that route. If it does need earthing, then you can earth it to anything such as pipes etc that go to ground. I don't use turntable mixers either, so I don't know if they have built in earthing for the turntable input.
The last time I used a turntable, I used an old amp that had a little earth spindle specifically for attaching turntables to. Without it, I got all sorts of noise.
The main reason I can see that a turntable mixer would have balanced outs is because they assume that you might have very long cable runs in a club or wherever. Also clubs use RTs for security personnel etc, bands use radio mics etc etc, so balanced really does become an issue. But at home, it's unlikely that you need balanced connection, even with a 15' cable run. Try the RCA output and see how it performs - the only possible problem could be earthing - but you probably know that better than me (just because I rarely used turntables)
And studios will often have balanced in/outs to all of their mixer channels/ subgroups/ amps etc. That's simply because they are a commercial operation and they can't leave it to chance - they need to know they have as clean a signal path as possible. At home it really isn't that crucial. If you have interfernce you can try changing a cable or two, moving them around a bit, shielding your monitor or speakers, waiting until the van with the boosted transmitter has moved from outside your window etc.
I would imagine any mixer dedicated to turntables has the earthing issue sorted out. And most even budget mixers nowadays have dedicated inputs for line-level turntables - so I'd hazard a guess that your RCA outs are perfectly good enough, and save you the extra hassle of switching your soundcard levels.
Or another way is h/w...it may not apply to you, but I've got a couple of comps that can switch between -10 and +4 ...so I'd maybe route the turntable into one of those, then use the comp front panel to boost the signal.
To be honest, I've rarely used balanced in/outs. Many of my h/w rack units have the option, and I used to have a mixer that could be set to all balanced in/outs, but I didn't use it that way...I just didn't have interference to warrant spending the extra on the cables. Also, as almost all synths use -10, I also never saw the point.
As for RCA input - I don't use turntables, but I do know that the older ones I used to have needed earthing (which you used to be able to do with the amp) Unless you're positive whether the RCA output also requires an earth lead or not, then I'd be wary about soing that route. If it does need earthing, then you can earth it to anything such as pipes etc that go to ground. I don't use turntable mixers either, so I don't know if they have built in earthing for the turntable input.
The last time I used a turntable, I used an old amp that had a little earth spindle specifically for attaching turntables to. Without it, I got all sorts of noise.
The main reason I can see that a turntable mixer would have balanced outs is because they assume that you might have very long cable runs in a club or wherever. Also clubs use RTs for security personnel etc, bands use radio mics etc etc, so balanced really does become an issue. But at home, it's unlikely that you need balanced connection, even with a 15' cable run. Try the RCA output and see how it performs - the only possible problem could be earthing - but you probably know that better than me (just because I rarely used turntables)
And studios will often have balanced in/outs to all of their mixer channels/ subgroups/ amps etc. That's simply because they are a commercial operation and they can't leave it to chance - they need to know they have as clean a signal path as possible. At home it really isn't that crucial. If you have interfernce you can try changing a cable or two, moving them around a bit, shielding your monitor or speakers, waiting until the van with the boosted transmitter has moved from outside your window etc.
I would imagine any mixer dedicated to turntables has the earthing issue sorted out. And most even budget mixers nowadays have dedicated inputs for line-level turntables - so I'd hazard a guess that your RCA outs are perfectly good enough, and save you the extra hassle of switching your soundcard levels.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 690 posts since 31 May, 2002 from chez moi
thanks for the info everyone.
fyi, all turntable mixers have ground posts for the turntables. Oddly enough, if I have my mixer and turntables turned off but still plugged into the input of the audiocard, a lot of noise comes through the speakers. If I keep the mixer plugged in, I need to mute the inputs of my card.
sluggo
fyi, all turntable mixers have ground posts for the turntables. Oddly enough, if I have my mixer and turntables turned off but still plugged into the input of the audiocard, a lot of noise comes through the speakers. If I keep the mixer plugged in, I need to mute the inputs of my card.
sluggo
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- Banned
- 6127 posts since 1 Apr, 2004 from Et in Arcadia Ego
So lemme ask this:
If the mixer has a set of stereo RCA outs, it's better to use a 1/4 out into a 1/8 adapter if you wanna get a signal into the default line-in on a PC?
If the mixer has a set of stereo RCA outs, it's better to use a 1/4 out into a 1/8 adapter if you wanna get a signal into the default line-in on a PC?
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- KVRAF
- 8749 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
Personally I don't like adapters, just because it adds in another potential sound degradation point. Poor connection, grime in the adapter sockets, and adapters are often cheap and made with inferior parts. Probably not noticeable in most instances, but I don't take the chance.
You can wire up any jack to any other type of jack, as long as the facility is there for the shielding to be attached. I had a whole load of cables made up years ago at a pro studio supplies place with their own electronic Mr Fixit. RCA->1/4" jacks, 1/8"->1/4", RCA->Banana plugs, 1/4"->banana plugs, Y-leads, etc. Still use many of them to this day. I do have some adapters as well, just for absolute emergencies, but generally I always have a lead for all occasions. Or you could make up your own leads if you're happy soldering, and want to save some cash.
You can wire up any jack to any other type of jack, as long as the facility is there for the shielding to be attached. I had a whole load of cables made up years ago at a pro studio supplies place with their own electronic Mr Fixit. RCA->1/4" jacks, 1/8"->1/4", RCA->Banana plugs, 1/4"->banana plugs, Y-leads, etc. Still use many of them to this day. I do have some adapters as well, just for absolute emergencies, but generally I always have a lead for all occasions. Or you could make up your own leads if you're happy soldering, and want to save some cash.
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- Banned
- 6127 posts since 1 Apr, 2004 from Et in Arcadia Ego
I solder tattoo needles..
If I solder an instrument cable or the like, I'm gonna blow my house's block off the city map..
If I solder an instrument cable or the like, I'm gonna blow my house's block off the city map..