KVR Audio

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 12:46 am

Two days ago I've sampled an (I should not say the name

) Acces Virus and realized how great it was to have Fx included in the synth: no need to record through delays , chorus etc you could add fx directly from the one inside;
The fact was here: no need external hardware or rec to add Fx.
then I realized that there was no need to have Fx included in Virtual synth, because most of the sequencer (that you must have to run a " VSTi " for example,except if you're using a standelone version) include all fx you could find on now days synths.
I think that fx usualy fill your CPU for nothing.
I've looked @ Albino & Vanguard (I love both of these synths

)and found that you could easily replace effects included with the ones of your host.
I also think that effects inluded in synths permit sound designers to give the sound more punch, beauty etc than it originaly have...
I really dislike the concept 'cause it fool people with some psycho-acoustic effects (listen to a synth stab with a chorus and a delay line then listen to it without and tell us wich one is full and fat).I also dislike that lot's of sound design companies (for hardware and/or software synth...I won't name them,they can be quiet

)use this way to create presets with only a single variation of Fx .

So I wanted to know your opinion about this
Thanks in advance
Kisses
Karen

Sicklecell666 · Post by **Sicklecell666** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:02 am

I hope you're satisfied with the war you are about to initiate.

What's the difference if it has onboard FX or not? Especially if you can dis-able them at will?

You're gonna load a chorus either in the synth or as an insert..

But the chorus gets loaded either way.

Whoopie-Doo..

_________________________________________

Now, building a preset collection without onboard FX enabled..THAT'S different

But that's like parading around naked to some Devs, I guess..depends who you ask.

Brb..I'm gonna go get my bowl of pop-corn..

Bassballjg · Post by **Bassballjg** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:05 am

I think that you have a good point about the "sweetening"aspect of built in effects.This is a carryover from hardware,and the same rule of thumb applies-listen with the effects turned off,then decide.

On the other hand,integrated effects can be used to great creative advantage by a good programmer.An effect can be integral to the creator/programmer sound design vision,and there's no guarantee that everybody has the same effects.Building effects into a synth therefore allows the creator to offer continuity to his/her customers.The synth will always sound the way the creator/programmer intended on any system,in any host,assuming they're compatable.Therefore,the other rule of thumb applies-if it sounds good,it is good

opiadream · Post by **opiadream** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:08 am

crybaby - john waters

oops
wrong thread

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:10 am

Maybe i missed the jist, but was she not talking about FX being used to disguise what are essentially shite patches? I think this happens a lot, particularly in the tarnce realm. Not that i blame patch designers for using onboard effects, some might even argue that they are an intrinsic part of the instrument. I mean, check Absynth, the effect module is as much a part of the synth as any other imo. I suppose its just nice to have those effects onboard to make those presets sound all the more shiny. I really dont think they serve much more of a purpose, especially in VST land. Maybe they were useful in the days of all hardware midi based studios, but no now when free quality VST fx are ten to a penny.

Sicklecell666 · Post by **Sicklecell666** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:15 am

You can't put a price on a built-in Alias-Concealer

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:20 am

The mans got a point

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:28 am

I don't want to start a war, and I respect what you think about it sickle666 even if I find you unpolished...
Basicaly my comment is based on the fact that integrated synth fx are not required to make the synth sound good.They're not elemental criterions and they must not justify the difference in price between synths with integrated FX and other one, but we all know it does because no developers would make some code lines for nothing..hum ?
BTW I said that "I" dislike this and I asked for your opinions and this say that I can change my own...but I must admit Mr Sicle that you don't succed in this task

I'm ok with what you said about creativity Bassballjg but currently most of the people use same host and effects, that's why we share a place like KvR, so I really don't think it's an argument to add Fx on synth.
Hoever I must admit I didn't think about patch sharing and Idientical synth sounds, but my vision of syth design is not copying but creating.
Thx a lot for your answers
Kisses(to Bassballjg only

)
Karen

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:33 am

I tend to agree with the point of this thread but I also understand that it can be very handy to be able to save all the effects settings with an instrument patch, rather than having to save a patch for the instrument and one for each effect you used on it.

I stopped including effects on my synths simply to conserve CPU usage as there is something in SE that often stops you from killing the CPU use when you turn an effect off. i.e. patch without FX = 5% CPU, patch with FX = 10% CPU, turn FX off and CPU stays at 10% for up to several minutes sometimes.

I have also come to the realisation that most of the time I don't need nearly as many effects as I used to think I did. Often effects like chorus work well on a solo sound but muddy up your mix.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:34 am

Read a post somewhere from a bloke who claimed everyone used pc's wrong. He had his default sequencer set up with huge insert and send stacks which he switched on till he got the sound he wanted. Reckoned you have to push the technology or you aint doing shit.
Cant say I ever tried it but I admired his attitude.

Karen-K · Post by **Karen-K** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:42 am

BTW I think it's better to choose/invest in only one Fx that sounds good rather than in some synth Fx wich are unusable outside of the synth.
Lookin' @ Z3ta's synth page I realized that it's Fx page could be used independantly from the synth...this option may be good for budget Fx, but if you plan to have a quality reverb for vocals I don't think you could do it with this

unfortunately (other than that I would have bought one

)
Karen

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:44 am

Must admit, i work in a kinda similar way when Im making new synth patches. I have a load of preset default set ups in SX and Audiomulch with typical effects i'd likely use in a range of given settings. Really works well for me too, its like having a custom made fx monster on the end of your given synth. Also, i find that i make sounds using this method from synths that i otherwise think of as shite - its amazing what some distortion, filtering and ambience can do to a simple sine wave!

shamann · Post by **shamann** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:45 am

I think I missed your point. You think the effects make a synth sound better

Karen-K wrote:...realized how great it was to have Fx included in the synth

&

Karen-K wrote:I also think that effects inluded in synths permit sound designers to give the sound more punch, beauty etc than it originaly have

but then you want the effects to be removed? So , you want your synths to sound worse?

Aside from the 'sound design this versus sound design that' arguments that will likely ensue, one reason to have onboard effects in a synth would be to tailor them to the modulation mechanisms already in the synth. So you could easily have one LFO modulating both a filter cutoff and chorus amount.

Cheers,
Steve

progfusion74 · Post by **progfusion74** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:46 am

I tend to design my own sounds these days on synths like MMV2, z3ta+, Cameleon, etc, and I must admit I often use fx, usually delays, and perhaps chorus, as part of the programming. I sometimes turn them off when I am recording, but to get the sound I want, I need them on and they are part of the sound for me.

shamann wrote:Aside from the 'sound design this versus sound design that' arguments that will likely ensue, one reason to have onboard effects in a synth would be to tailor them to the modulation mechanisms already in the synth. So you could easily have one LFO modulating both a filter cutoff and chorus amount.

Exactly

Majken · Post by **Majken** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:54 am

In most cases built in effects are rather pointless. If the synth is badly optimized they will also be stealing cpu in the background even when not in use. A chorus might steal cpu for the LFO and so on.

However a few synths uses a modmatrix that allows you to modulate effects parameters as well as synth parameters and then it all makes sense. Cause that means sync'ed modulation data can be shared between filters and effects which can make some very interesting patches.

Ehh.. Can't really say i know of alot of synths that uses it.. umm, heh.. My own synth SubDuer does though for the delay, here's a snippet of delay panning being modulated by the synth : http://www.majken.se/synced-delay2.mp3 - Sort of shows what I mean.

/Majken

Why do people always want virtual synths with Fx on-board ?