I have tried several compressors on the mix bus at various settings (e.g., ratio 2:1 or less, -1 to -3 dB gain reduction, 10ms or greater for the attack to preserve transients) and my general conclusion is that my mix of acoustic instruments sounds more open, particularly in highs without a compressor. Out of the few I tried, TDR Kateinikov sounds the most transparent but still squishes the highs a bit, at least to my ears. In other words, the openness of the track becomes "compressed", losses some of its "height" in the act of adding that so-called "magic" gluing effect of compression on the mix bus.
I am curious if others have experienced the same and generally avoid compressors on the mix bus for acoustic mixes (e.g., Jazz, folk) or have suggestions on a particular compressor or settings for acoustic music. Perhaps, I should stick with saturation plugins to tame the peak levels. They tend to sound better to me than compressors for acoustic music, although not as effective for controlling dynamics. For that, I could rely more on manual volume automation of individual tracks. Thanks
Compression on acoustic mixes lessen "height"?
-
- Boss Lovin' DR
- 14312 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Just a little goes a long way. I like Kotelnikov too for acoustic stuff, but at a very low ratio - 1.2:1 or so, and averaging around 1 db or compression. With these kind of settings you're digging deep with the threshold (-30 and below even) to bring out the fine detail and add gentle cohesion. Attack wise probably even longer than 10 ms usually - 20ms or so.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 132 posts since 31 Jan, 2021
Thanks for the suggestions. I am not clear on how the Peak and RMS release settings interact in Kotelnikov. How do you usually set them?
donkey tugger wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:35 pm Just a little goes a long way. I like Kotelnikov too for acoustic stuff, but at a very low ratio - 1.2:1 or so, and averaging around 1 db or compression. With these kind of settings you're digging deep with the threshold (-30 and below even) to bring out the fine detail and add gentle cohesion. Attack wise probably even longer than 10 ms usually - 20ms or so.
-
- KVRAF
- 3303 posts since 6 Jul, 2012 from Sick-cily
I have an old version of Tokyo Dawn Labs TDR Feedback Compressor (v0.4.06 beta) that works perfectly for this kind of material
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 132 posts since 31 Jan, 2021
Apparently, TDR Kotelnikov is the recommended update. ON TDR's Feedback Compressor web page it says, "Product discontinued! Please use TDR Kotelnikov in your new projects."
Turello wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:45 pm I have an old version of Tokyo Dawn Labs TDR Feedback Compressor (v0.4.06 beta) that works perfectly for this kind of material
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 132 posts since 31 Jan, 2021
To answer my own question of RMS vs Peak release in Kotelnikov, from the manual:
RELEASE PEAK defines how quickly gain recovers after short overloads (i.e. fast transients).
Note that the release peak section automatically accelerates release time substantially in cases of high dynamic range content such as drum, percussion or similar “clicky” material. This behavior prevents the over-compression typically appearing after short dynamic events.
The value specified by the user only describes the average case. The release section’s automatism speeds up release where suitable. As always, and with every parameter, tune this by ear.
Release RMS
RELEASE RMS defines how fast gain recovers after sustained gain reduction.
Similarly to the peak sections, the effective RMS release is subject to several elaborate automatisms. The true RMS release depends on signal frequency and dynamics. Kotelnikov’s RMS stage automatically slows down release where applicable and in rare situations even up to almost infinity.
More on the Timing Section
Dual release paths offer a wide range of musically useful options. For example; single drum peaks can be allowed to recover quickly to avoid “dulling” and “breathing” side-effects. At the same time, sustained content like bass-lines or synth pads can recover more slowly and thus strongly reduce typical side-effects like “pumping” and distortion.
For complex material such as full mixes we recommend a RELEASE PEAK value between 25-100ms and RELEASE RMS values above 150ms. Faster settings are useful for particularly dynamic material like solo drums, percussion and acapellas. Use PEAK CREST to control the overall aggressiveness of the process.
Input characteristics and the selected PEAK CREST setting have a substantial effect on the internal peak/RMS release path switching. Because the peak path is much more sensitive than the RMS path, setting the RELEASE PEAK to a higher value than RELEASE RMS while keeping the PEAK CREST low effectively disables the RMS part of the compressor.
RELEASE PEAK defines how quickly gain recovers after short overloads (i.e. fast transients).
Note that the release peak section automatically accelerates release time substantially in cases of high dynamic range content such as drum, percussion or similar “clicky” material. This behavior prevents the over-compression typically appearing after short dynamic events.
The value specified by the user only describes the average case. The release section’s automatism speeds up release where suitable. As always, and with every parameter, tune this by ear.
Release RMS
RELEASE RMS defines how fast gain recovers after sustained gain reduction.
Similarly to the peak sections, the effective RMS release is subject to several elaborate automatisms. The true RMS release depends on signal frequency and dynamics. Kotelnikov’s RMS stage automatically slows down release where applicable and in rare situations even up to almost infinity.
More on the Timing Section
Dual release paths offer a wide range of musically useful options. For example; single drum peaks can be allowed to recover quickly to avoid “dulling” and “breathing” side-effects. At the same time, sustained content like bass-lines or synth pads can recover more slowly and thus strongly reduce typical side-effects like “pumping” and distortion.
For complex material such as full mixes we recommend a RELEASE PEAK value between 25-100ms and RELEASE RMS values above 150ms. Faster settings are useful for particularly dynamic material like solo drums, percussion and acapellas. Use PEAK CREST to control the overall aggressiveness of the process.
Input characteristics and the selected PEAK CREST setting have a substantial effect on the internal peak/RMS release path switching. Because the peak path is much more sensitive than the RMS path, setting the RELEASE PEAK to a higher value than RELEASE RMS while keeping the PEAK CREST low effectively disables the RMS part of the compressor.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 132 posts since 31 Jan, 2021
To answer my own question of RMS vs Peak release in Kotelnikov, from the manual:
RELEASE PEAK defines how quickly gain recovers after short overloads (i.e. fast transients).
Note that the release peak section automatically accelerates release time substantially in cases of high dynamic range content such as drum, percussion or similar “clicky” material. This behavior prevents the over-compression typically appearing after short dynamic events.
The value specified by the user only describes the average case. The release section’s automatism speeds up release where suitable. As always, and with every parameter, tune this by ear.
RELEASE RMS defines how fast gain recovers after sustained gain reduction.
Similarly to the peak sections, the effective RMS release is subject to several elaborate automatisms. The true RMS release depends on signal frequency and dynamics. Kotelnikov’s RMS stage automatically slows down release where applicable and in rare situations even up to almost infinity.
More on the Timing Section
Dual release paths offer a wide range of musically useful options. For example; single drum peaks can be allowed to recover quickly to avoid “dulling” and “breathing” side-effects. At the same time, sustained content like bass-lines or synth pads can recover more slowly and thus strongly reduce typical side-effects like “pumping” and distortion.
For complex material such as full mixes we recommend a RELEASE PEAK value between 25-100ms and RELEASE RMS values above 150ms. Faster settings are useful for particularly dynamic material like solo drums, percussion and acapellas. Use PEAK CREST to control the overall aggressiveness of the process.
Input characteristics and the selected PEAK CREST setting have a substantial effect on the internal peak/RMS release path switching. Because the peak path is much more sensitive than the RMS path, setting the RELEASE PEAK to a higher value than RELEASE RMS while keeping the PEAK CREST low effectively disables the RMS part of the compressor.
RELEASE PEAK defines how quickly gain recovers after short overloads (i.e. fast transients).
Note that the release peak section automatically accelerates release time substantially in cases of high dynamic range content such as drum, percussion or similar “clicky” material. This behavior prevents the over-compression typically appearing after short dynamic events.
The value specified by the user only describes the average case. The release section’s automatism speeds up release where suitable. As always, and with every parameter, tune this by ear.
RELEASE RMS defines how fast gain recovers after sustained gain reduction.
Similarly to the peak sections, the effective RMS release is subject to several elaborate automatisms. The true RMS release depends on signal frequency and dynamics. Kotelnikov’s RMS stage automatically slows down release where applicable and in rare situations even up to almost infinity.
More on the Timing Section
Dual release paths offer a wide range of musically useful options. For example; single drum peaks can be allowed to recover quickly to avoid “dulling” and “breathing” side-effects. At the same time, sustained content like bass-lines or synth pads can recover more slowly and thus strongly reduce typical side-effects like “pumping” and distortion.
For complex material such as full mixes we recommend a RELEASE PEAK value between 25-100ms and RELEASE RMS values above 150ms. Faster settings are useful for particularly dynamic material like solo drums, percussion and acapellas. Use PEAK CREST to control the overall aggressiveness of the process.
Input characteristics and the selected PEAK CREST setting have a substantial effect on the internal peak/RMS release path switching. Because the peak path is much more sensitive than the RMS path, setting the RELEASE PEAK to a higher value than RELEASE RMS while keeping the PEAK CREST low effectively disables the RMS part of the compressor.
-
- KVRAF
- 2877 posts since 10 Jul, 2008 from Orbit SW US
i'm thinking the reverse. i use compression on acoustic sources but rarely on electronic sources. i can control the dynamics with synthesizers easily. i'm middle of the road on sample players although generally samplesets are compressed already. yes, it does sort of 'compress' some or all frequencies 
gadgets an gizmos..make noise~crystalawareness.bandcamp.com/ soundcloud.com/crystalawareness Restocked: 7/2026
if this post is edited -it was for punctuation, grammar, or to make it coherent (or make me seem coherent).
if this post is edited -it was for punctuation, grammar, or to make it coherent (or make me seem coherent).
-
- KVRist
- 102 posts since 22 May, 2019
If you use the Gentleman Edition of Kotelnikov, you can use the FDR function, which allows to set the ratio differently between frequency ranges. In your case, you can tweak the curve so that the ratio is 1:1 on the treble side of the spectrum, so that Koternikov compresses only the lower part of the signal and leaves the highs uncompressed.
-
- KVRian
- 1073 posts since 8 Mar, 2009
Could be just that you don't like software compression. It sounds ironic, but most outboard comps tend to sound more "open"than software comps even for the same amount of averaging and gain reduction. tis a mystery
I
-
- KVRAF
- 25051 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
You could try Kotelnikov GE's FDR feature - otherwise (i.e. Kotelnikov aside altogether) you either need a compressor that offers LP or high-shelf in the feedback-path or a multiband-comp where you leave the high band uncompressed (or only compress it veryl mildly). There's a myriad for both available.sambaji wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:27 pm my general conclusion is that my mix of acoustic instruments sounds more open, particularly in highs without a compressor. Out of the few I tried, TDR Kateinikov sounds the most transparent but still squishes the highs a bit, at least to my ears. In other words, the openness of the track becomes "compressed"
Boz' Manic Compressor is the king of sidechain-equalization - it let's you shape the frequency-specs of the compression to your heart's content.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 132 posts since 31 Jan, 2021
As you suggested, Kotelnikov GE's FDR feature works well combined with the dry signal turned up (parallel compression).jens wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:52 pm You could try Kotelnikov GE's FDR feature - otherwise (i.e. Kotelnikov aside altogether) you either need a compressor that offers LP or high-shelf in the feedback-path or a multiband-comp where you leave the high band uncompressed (or only compress it veryl mildly). There's a myriad for both available.
A big shout to Tokyo Dawn! Not only do they make excellent reasonable priced plugins, especially when on sale, but they also provide free versions, and their demo versions are full-featured with no deadline or ilok! Tokyo Dawn is one of my favorite plugin companies.