A question about the Doric scale A moll

[Zasdg]

I would like to ask you if the A minor dorian scale is derived from the major dorian scale?

[BertKoor]

Please tell us what those two scales exactly are.

Dorian is best known as a mode, not as a scale, and not as having major & minor variants.

A moll as in Ab? Would that matter btw?
When would it be derived? In name or by construction?

[Zasdg]

I'd like to know where did the Doric minor scales come from (A minor doric, D minor doric etc.)?
I thought it had to do with mod.

[Zasdg]

I mean such a scale the sounds of which are as follows: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#
Where does this scale come from?

[NERF_PROTOSS]

I mean such a scale the sounds of which are as follows: A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#
Where does this scale come from?

'doric' seems like a pretty obscure name. most people will call this melodic minor.*

one origin goes something like: we take our diatonic minor scale (A B C D E F G) but the V I cadence doesn't sound particularly strong, so we raise the seventh and get G#. our predominant chords still sound like they're in minor because they feature the F, but now we have dominant functioning chords (E, E7, G#dim7) that actually pull to A with the G#. Thus 'harmonic' minor.

then some people say the G# creates some melodic problems when it's next to F - 'melodic problems' basically amounts to folks in ye olden days whining about it being hard to sing the augmented second from F to G#, so we raise the sixth too and get F#. Thus 'melodic' minor.

For our purposes in the 21st century, we can use either of these scales (and their modes) however we like. Melodic minor modes in particular are used a ton in jazz.

*some people will call it melodic minor ascending, because they like to practice the descending scale with F natural and G natural, but they're pedantic and wrong. common practice era composers didn't stick rigidly to ascending/descending rules.

[Zasdg]

Thanks for the extensive explanation. I thought that the name "Doric" came from the modal scale beginning with the D note (D, E, F, G, A, B, C) - similar to the A minor doric scale but without the increased G note (A, B, C, D , E, F #, G). I mean the same intervals - there are first a major third, then minor third.

[Zasdg]

Or maybe the name "doric" or "dorian" has something to do with Hypodorian mode (or other ancient modes)?
"The Hypodorian mode, a musical term literally meaning 'below Dorian', derives its name from a tonos or octave species of ancient Greece which, in its diatonic genus, is built from a tetrachord consisting (in rising direction) of a semitone followed by two whole tones. The rising scale for the octave is a single tone followed by two conjoint tetrachords of this type. This is roughly the same as playing all the white notes of a piano from A to A: A | BCDE | (E) FG A. Although this scale in medieval theory was employed in Dorian and Hypodorian, from the mid-sixteenth century and in modern music theory they came to be known as the Aeolian and Hypoaeolian modes. " (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypodorian_mode)

[NERF_PROTOSS]

I wouldn't worry about the origins of names or naming things beyond what you need to effectively communicate with most musicians (and/or label stuff for analysis).

the names of the diatonic modes in modern use are arbitrary and nonsensical and almost certainly have little to do with ancient greek practice, but they're known commonly enough that they work as a shorthand.

[Zasdg]

You're right.

[Old Nick]

You're right.

ftfy
I wish people would spend as much effort getting their English grammar correct as they do their musical grammar.
</rant>

[Zasdg]

ftfy
I wish people would spend as much effort getting their English grammar correct as they do their musical grammar.

I'm so sorry for my English. I come from a country where I only had to study Russian (8 years - I had no choice). I remember wanting to buy an English dictionary (in 1981) but I couldn't buy anywhere (like many other things). To this day, I am correcting the lack of education.

[sjm]

A moll as in Ab?

Moll = minor, not flat, at least in the languages I know.

[Zasdg]

Ok.

[Old Nick]

ftfy
I wish people would spend as much effort getting their English grammar correct as they do their musical grammar.

I'm so sorry for my English. I come from a country where I only had to study Russian (8 years - I had no choice). I remember wanting to buy an English dictionary (in 1981) but I couldn't buy anywhere (like many other things). To this day, I am correcting the lack of education.

You get a free pass.

[Zasdg]

Thank you.