I am new to music production and am trying to wrap my head around what happens if you place certain FX before or after other FX. I tried inserting certain FX before my waveform readings (Smexoscope) and EQ readings (Pro Q) to determine what FX will increase EQ readings and/or increase the peaks and found the following results:
Compression: Raises peaks, decreases EQ readings
Why does it raise the peaks on the smexoscope, but decreases EQ readings?
Reverb: Lowers peaks, decreased EQ readings
If reverb is an additional sound, why does the EQ not read the original sound, followed quickly by the reverberated sound?
Delay: Lowers peaks, results in two different EQ readings (original sound remains the same, followed by EQ readings of the delayed signal)
Why does it lower peaks, the peak of the original sound should still show up on the smexoscope?
Flanger: Lowers Peaks, decreased EQ readings
Is Flanger also an additional sound? Regardless of whether it is or not, why does it have the aforementioned results?
Phaser: Lowers peaks, increases some frequency readings, decreases others
Again, why the similar results?
Choruser: Lowers Peaks, decreases EQ readings:
Again why the similar results?
EQ Boosts before clipping increases the peaks, this however makes sense to me unlike the above.
Is there any other information regarding order of FX I should know about?
If anyone can provide any help, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
Order of FX - Clipping and EQP
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 28 posts since 7 Sep, 2021
I am new to music production and am trying to wrap my head around what happens if you place certain FX before or after other FX. I tried inserting certain FX before my waveform readings (Smexoscope) and EQ readings (Pro Q) to determine what FX will increase EQ readings and/or increase the peaks and found the following results:
Compression: Raises peaks, decreases EQ readings
Why does it raise the peaks on the smexoscope, but decreases EQ readings?
Reverb: Lowers peaks, decreased EQ readings
If reverb is an additional sound, why does the EQ not read the original sound, followed quickly by the reverberated sound?
Delay: Lowers peaks, results in two different EQ readings (original sound remains the same, followed by EQ readings of the delayed signal)
Why does it lower peaks, the peak of the original sound should still show up on the smexoscope?
Flanger: Lowers Peaks, decreased EQ readings
Is Flanger also an additional sound? Regardless of whether it is or not, why does it have the aforementioned results?
Phaser: Lowers peaks, increases some frequency readings, decreases others
Again, why the similar results?
Choruser: Lowers Peaks, decreases EQ readings:
Again why the similar results?
EQ Boosts before clipping increases the peaks, this however makes sense to me unlike the above.
Is there any other information regarding order of FX I should know about?
If anyone can provide any help, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
Compression: Raises peaks, decreases EQ readings
Why does it raise the peaks on the smexoscope, but decreases EQ readings?
Reverb: Lowers peaks, decreased EQ readings
If reverb is an additional sound, why does the EQ not read the original sound, followed quickly by the reverberated sound?
Delay: Lowers peaks, results in two different EQ readings (original sound remains the same, followed by EQ readings of the delayed signal)
Why does it lower peaks, the peak of the original sound should still show up on the smexoscope?
Flanger: Lowers Peaks, decreased EQ readings
Is Flanger also an additional sound? Regardless of whether it is or not, why does it have the aforementioned results?
Phaser: Lowers peaks, increases some frequency readings, decreases others
Again, why the similar results?
Choruser: Lowers Peaks, decreases EQ readings:
Again why the similar results?
EQ Boosts before clipping increases the peaks, this however makes sense to me unlike the above.
Is there any other information regarding order of FX I should know about?
If anyone can provide any help, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
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- KVRAF
- 9578 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
Whatever is nonlinear processing (distortion/saturation/clipping…), adds harmonics which have not been there before. That means a linear process like eq, reverb or delay will sound different if you combine it with a nonlinear process depending on the order. If you only combine linear processes the order should not make a difference… (Assuming your DAW calculates in 32-bit floating point (which all DAWs do) and doesn‘t clip internally (which would be a nonlinear process…).
Any analog modeled device will have some nonlinearity backed in btw., even if it is a delay or an equalizer…
Put the reverb always at the end, unless you look at it as a pure fx instead of a space…
Any analog modeled device will have some nonlinearity backed in btw., even if it is a delay or an equalizer…
Put the reverb always at the end, unless you look at it as a pure fx instead of a space…
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- KVRAF
- 1524 posts since 29 Oct, 2015 from Jupiter 8
It really depends what you're doing.
Standard compression (aka downward) does not raise peaks on it's own - as it in fact lowers them, unless the output trim of the plugin is set to boost the signal to more than the compression does attenuate the peaks.
If you do parallel compression, then the the signal gets boosted of course since the additional signal adds up to the unprocessed sound.
In general though, most of your observations seem to be output (wet) level related and not because of the actual process.
Regarding the order of FX: it makes a huge difference if you compress before or after a delay or a reverb, or delay before or after a reverb.
It just depends on what you want to achieve which order is the “correct“ one
Standard compression (aka downward) does not raise peaks on it's own - as it in fact lowers them, unless the output trim of the plugin is set to boost the signal to more than the compression does attenuate the peaks.
If you do parallel compression, then the the signal gets boosted of course since the additional signal adds up to the unprocessed sound.
In general though, most of your observations seem to be output (wet) level related and not because of the actual process.
Regarding the order of FX: it makes a huge difference if you compress before or after a delay or a reverb, or delay before or after a reverb.
It just depends on what you want to achieve which order is the “correct“ one
The GAS is always greener on the other side!
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- KVRian
- 1086 posts since 17 Jun, 2012
With the exception of Eq n these are all listed effects that make great candidates for parallel processing. Having said that, heres a more typical order of effects from a guitarist's perspective:
Phaser first. Eddie Van Halen used to place his famous Phase 90 pedal at the beginning of his chain. You'll get a cleaner sound putting this first.
Then gain based effects like compression or distortion fx where the compressor would typically come first before a distortion pedal for instance.
Then modulation effects with chorus and flanger.
Then eq.
Then delay, and then reverb as the very last in the chain.
The one part where you may see more variation is the use of eq. For mixing, there's a school of thought that advocates eq cuts before compression, boosts after compression. But many mixers like CLA will put all eqs before co.pression, including boosts. The compression coming after can kind of tuck in the boosts more and has a different effect that would have to be hears rather than explained. When mixing vocals and boosting frequencies before hitting the compressor, you can minimize the impact of overdoing the frequencies that cause harsh "s" sounds or sibilance. Boosting high frequencies after compression will increase the likelihood that youll need to add a deesser back into the chain.
Phaser first. Eddie Van Halen used to place his famous Phase 90 pedal at the beginning of his chain. You'll get a cleaner sound putting this first.
Then gain based effects like compression or distortion fx where the compressor would typically come first before a distortion pedal for instance.
Then modulation effects with chorus and flanger.
Then eq.
Then delay, and then reverb as the very last in the chain.
The one part where you may see more variation is the use of eq. For mixing, there's a school of thought that advocates eq cuts before compression, boosts after compression. But many mixers like CLA will put all eqs before co.pression, including boosts. The compression coming after can kind of tuck in the boosts more and has a different effect that would have to be hears rather than explained. When mixing vocals and boosting frequencies before hitting the compressor, you can minimize the impact of overdoing the frequencies that cause harsh "s" sounds or sibilance. Boosting high frequencies after compression will increase the likelihood that youll need to add a deesser back into the chain.
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- KVRian
- 1086 posts since 17 Jun, 2012
To elaborate. The phaser messes with the time and pitch. Sounds cleaner to put towards the front of the change, same as with a wah wah or whammy pedal. Compression as a guitar effect typically comes next. If you put a distortion pedal in front of the compressor you will be compressing distortion and that will sound horrible. If you put modulation fx in front of the distortion the signal tends to sound muddier. The pure time based fx like delay will typically go last. Think of it like this. You are delaying the entire signal chain so put that last. Reverb comes after delay because if you put these sound reflections that bounce around at the end you will get a cleaner sound. Few things will make the sound signal sound like a mess than adding tons of reverb. Unless going for a creative effect, put this last.
You can always break the rules for creative effect. Experimenting is great. Just giving a take on how guitarists plugged into an amp with stomp and no fx loop will handle things in a typical setup.
Rule of thumb for guitarists:
Pitch based fx first
Gain Based fx next
Modulation fx next
Time-based fx last
You can always break the rules for creative effect. Experimenting is great. Just giving a take on how guitarists plugged into an amp with stomp and no fx loop will handle things in a typical setup.
Rule of thumb for guitarists:
Pitch based fx first
Gain Based fx next
Modulation fx next
Time-based fx last
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- KVRAF
- 6780 posts since 17 Dec, 2009
phaser messes with phase generally - not at all with time and pitch.
It's a series of all-pass filters that are applied to signal in parallel, producing dips and peaks (comb filtering) due to phase alteration.
The filter center frequencies are usually modulated with an LFO.
But it doesn't f**k neither with pitch or time by design
It's a series of all-pass filters that are applied to signal in parallel, producing dips and peaks (comb filtering) due to phase alteration.
The filter center frequencies are usually modulated with an LFO.
But it doesn't f**k neither with pitch or time by design
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- KVRian
- 1086 posts since 17 Jun, 2012
My mistake on those details. I had wrongly associated the effect with pitch and time at least the way I hear it. The benefits of posting on the forum is while sharing what you do know, you learn what you dont. Cheers mate!Ploki wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:06 pm phaser messes with phase generally - not at all with time and pitch.
It's a series of all-pass filters that are applied to signal in parallel, producing dips and peaks (comb filtering) due to phase alteration.
The filter center frequencies are usually modulated with an LFO.
But it doesn't f**k neither with pitch or time by design
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- KVRAF
- 4589 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
1. Always compensate the volume of effects so that output and input RMS levels are equal.
2. Keep your input levels low so they don't get clipped inside effects. Especially resonant filters can create some very high peaks.
3. Turn off the phaser before doing any EQ work. Phaser adds some movement, but doesn't change frequency balance over long period of time.
4. Don't put any effects after limiter as they will create ripples again.
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2. Keep your input levels low so they don't get clipped inside effects. Especially resonant filters can create some very high peaks.
3. Turn off the phaser before doing any EQ work. Phaser adds some movement, but doesn't change frequency balance over long period of time.
4. Don't put any effects after limiter as they will create ripples again.
...
5. Subscribe to for more mixing tips
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 28 posts since 7 Sep, 2021
I thought plugins that affected all frequencies equally would be linear and those that don't non linear? I know what the two mean but hard to wrap my head around itTj Shredder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:18 am Whatever is nonlinear processing (distortion/saturation/clipping…), adds harmonics which have not been there before. That means a linear process like eq, reverb or delay will sound different if you combine it with a nonlinear process depending on the order. If you only combine linear processes the order should not make a difference… (Assuming your DAW calculates in 32-bit floating point (which all DAWs do) and doesn‘t clip internally (which would be a nonlinear process…).
Any analog modeled device will have some nonlinearity backed in btw., even if it is a delay or an equalizer…
Put the reverb always at the end, unless you look at it as a pure fx instead of a space…
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- KVRAF
- 2575 posts since 25 Apr, 2009 from gone
Well, it seems you’re asking yourself questions for nothing.
Music creation is art. The order of your effects depends on what you think sounds better. No sound engineer KNOWS a way to make everything perfect. Everybody would do the same if there was an absolute method to follow. There is none.
Just try to put an effect before another. You’ll find your own way of working. That’s how we all work. Don’t try to find a scientific reason behind this. Find what sounds good to you.
There are only a very few ”rules”. Keep that limiter and that clipper for the very end of the chain. If you NEED to limit a couple of peaks somewhere before, limit as few as possible.
Music creation is art. The order of your effects depends on what you think sounds better. No sound engineer KNOWS a way to make everything perfect. Everybody would do the same if there was an absolute method to follow. There is none.
Just try to put an effect before another. You’ll find your own way of working. That’s how we all work. Don’t try to find a scientific reason behind this. Find what sounds good to you.
There are only a very few ”rules”. Keep that limiter and that clipper for the very end of the chain. If you NEED to limit a couple of peaks somewhere before, limit as few as possible.
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- KVRAF
- 9578 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
You would call a frequency response flat, not linear. Nonlinear is about levels. If you treat a digital signal, and only delay, multiply or add (mix), no new frequencies will appear. All that is linear. As soon as you distort a signal, that means the multiplication affects higher levels less strong than lower levels, you get extra harmonics as a sine would change its waveform. If you feed two different frequencies in there, you also get sum a difference frequencies in addition…bigloo wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:14 pmI thought plugins that affected all frequencies equally would be linear and those that don't non linear? I know what the two mean but hard to wrap my head around itTj Shredder wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:18 am Whatever is nonlinear processing (distortion/saturation/clipping…), adds harmonics which have not been there before. That means a linear process like eq, reverb or delay will sound different if you combine it with a nonlinear process depending on the order. If you only combine linear processes the order should not make a difference… (Assuming your DAW calculates in 32-bit floating point (which all DAWs do) and doesn‘t clip internally (which would be a nonlinear process…).
Any analog modeled device will have some nonlinearity backed in btw., even if it is a delay or an equalizer…
Put the reverb always at the end, unless you look at it as a pure fx instead of a space…
Now if you filter a distorted signal you can eliminate the high frequencies which had been produced. If you distort after the filter you have created new high frequencies you‘d still hear…
In general what the previous posts state is correct, use your ears which will get you experience. But it is very useful to also gain knowledge and understand why something sounds like it sounds… That way you will be able to move into new areas never heard before…
Btw. digital biquad filters are just very short delays with feedback… Any so called „zero delay“ filters have likely some nonlinearities, thats why they sound nice…