Is this a thing? I have a song that goes ONE, two, three, ONE, two, three, ONE, two…setting up a template with 8/4 works, I'm just wondering if 6/8 measure + a 2/4 would do the same thing?
Thankee.
8/4 time?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10613 posts since 31 Aug, 2013 from Somewhere near the Morgul Vale.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
-Martin Luther King Jr.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Why not. 3+3+2 is pretty common. You could say it's half tempo 4/4 IE., 8/8. If no one else has to deal with it, it's your worry only. If a conductor sees that they'll draw 4/4 in the air twice. I end up with stupid shit like 20-something BPM and the beat is given all in 8ths or 16ths or worse, which no one wants to see, but it's just me and the quick 'n dirty.
But 6/8 + 2/4 is five quarter notes value, you want 6/4 + 2/4. But 3 + 3 + 2 is a very normal syncopation.
But 6/8 + 2/4 is five quarter notes value, you want 6/4 + 2/4. But 3 + 3 + 2 is a very normal syncopation.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Banned
- 995 posts since 4 Feb, 2021
As far as I dig it, you are just making a socalled clave in 8/4 with accents on 1, 4, 7, right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clave_(rhythm)
I checked if it was a known and shared clave, but could not find anything suggesting it. But a clave in 8/4 it is in my book. Personally, I see no reason to express this in other meters than 8/4, but we know that some prefer to notate such in compound meters + simple meters or vice versa. Not for me. I am a trained percussionist, and my Afro-American teacher from then would surely have strangled me if I ever suggested a timeshift by the latter notation where there would be none in his framework. Just a clave. Tho, as implied, this does not mean there is a fixed standard from which you can derive what is right or wrong. A question of preference.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clave_(rhythm)
I checked if it was a known and shared clave, but could not find anything suggesting it. But a clave in 8/4 it is in my book. Personally, I see no reason to express this in other meters than 8/4, but we know that some prefer to notate such in compound meters + simple meters or vice versa. Not for me. I am a trained percussionist, and my Afro-American teacher from then would surely have strangled me if I ever suggested a timeshift by the latter notation where there would be none in his framework. Just a clave. Tho, as implied, this does not mean there is a fixed standard from which you can derive what is right or wrong. A question of preference.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
it's half the Bo Diddley clave
I see 8/4 and assume it must be slower than the idea given as 4/4, but that's just convention and conditioned expectation.
I see 8/4 and assume it must be slower than the idea given as 4/4, but that's just convention and conditioned expectation.
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- Banned
- 995 posts since 4 Feb, 2021
I’ll be damned. You just nailed it, Jan. Half a Bo it is
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 10613 posts since 31 Aug, 2013 from Somewhere near the Morgul Vale.
Cool. Thanks. Tempo will be around 136-142 bpm.
“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
-Martin Luther King Jr.
-Martin Luther King Jr.
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- Banned
- 995 posts since 4 Feb, 2021
Tadaaaa! It is shared. Thought it reminded me of Tango and it is (one among others).
https://www.jaytango.com/?p=717
https://youtu.be/B28tq5C5Mos
However, also one type of Milonga clave.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milonga_(music)
Cheers
https://www.jaytango.com/?p=717
https://youtu.be/B28tq5C5Mos
However, also one type of Milonga clave.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milonga_(music)
Cheers
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.
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- KVRist
- 88 posts since 17 Sep, 2021
As it is quite fast tempo - but it's purely esthetic - I would use 8th notes. So 3/8+3/8+2/8 rather than 3/4+3/4+2/4. That's for exemple why scherzo are written in 3/8 rather than 3/4.
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
One benefit of notating it 4/4 rather than 8/8 would be that it allows the performer to interpret a bit of swing on the second note 
On the other hand 8/8 would imply that it can be treated as a compound time; a conductor might interpret that by beating only the three strong beats!
There's no restricted list of "allowed" time signatures, you should pick one that indicates how the bar should be counted. 4/2 is not unusual if you go back to Renaissance stuff and sometimes makes sense for a slow section in a longer piece.
On the other hand 8/8 would imply that it can be treated as a compound time; a conductor might interpret that by beating only the three strong beats!
There's no restricted list of "allowed" time signatures, you should pick one that indicates how the bar should be counted. 4/2 is not unusual if you go back to Renaissance stuff and sometimes makes sense for a slow section in a longer piece.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
compound time means both 3 and 2 figure into the denominator. 8 is not that thing, period.
"a conductor might interpret that by beating only the three strong beats!"
in what dimension does 8 become a product of 3? Literally no one working, ever, is this incompetent.
"by beating only the three strong beats!" It's a syncopation, in 4 time. Only the first and last of these, on 1 and 4; or in 8, 1 and 7 are strong beats. there is absolutely not a scintilla of a hint that the signature Glenn has is an error or ambiguous.
(only that I would write it in 4 ie., considering it 8/8 at this tempo). 3 + 3 + 2 = 8.
I, 2 & 3, 4.
The commas are the same value as "&". Or, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Syncopation is an emphasized weak beat or off-beat. This is perhaps the most common of all.
"a conductor might interpret that by beating only the three strong beats!"
in what dimension does 8 become a product of 3? Literally no one working, ever, is this incompetent.
"by beating only the three strong beats!" It's a syncopation, in 4 time. Only the first and last of these, on 1 and 4; or in 8, 1 and 7 are strong beats. there is absolutely not a scintilla of a hint that the signature Glenn has is an error or ambiguous.
(only that I would write it in 4 ie., considering it 8/8 at this tempo). 3 + 3 + 2 = 8.
I, 2 & 3, 4.
The commas are the same value as "&". Or, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Syncopation is an emphasized weak beat or off-beat. This is perhaps the most common of all.
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- Banned
- 995 posts since 4 Feb, 2021
I just like tango. Never went to dance myself, but if I should…wow.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or oblique motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
(I'm assuming you mean the numerator, not denominator.)jancivil wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:34 pm compound time means both 3 and 2 figure into the denominator. 8 is not that thing, period.
"a conductor might interpret that by beating only the three strong beats!"
in what dimension does 8 become a product of 3? Literally no one working, ever, is this incompetent.
I'm going on experience of playing 5/8, 7/8, etc. time signatures in orchestras. It's not that unusual to conduct irregular beats if that's what the music calls for. I'll take your word for it that this isn't correctly called compound time unless N is a product of two and three. What is this called? Grouping, maybe?
(Hmm, I wonder if "compound time" could mean other products of two prime numbers, such as 10 or 21?)
I would mark the OP's rhythm as 4/4 but if it was fast enough and you wanted to make a point of it, it wouldn't be crazy to mark it 8/8. If it was a fast tempo, most people were playing that rhythm, and a baton was put in my hand, I would beat 8/8 as three beats (3,3,2) and 4/4 as four beats. It's unusual to direct every beat of an N/8 time signature, it implies grouping.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
For ideas sake, we can act like the first couple 3s are 6/8, _then_ a 2/8.
So for instance once of the ways Piazzolo has expressed the rhythm of "Libertango" begins with 2 dotted 16 8ths, the 2nd tied to the first of two more, then the and after two. In that case *part of* the rhythm can be compound, but in no way is 8 a compound, which means compound of 3 and 2. There we have a double syncopation.
Another way a tango is expressed has a strong 3 and 4, not a clave.
So for instance once of the ways Piazzolo has expressed the rhythm of "Libertango" begins with 2 dotted 16 8ths, the 2nd tied to the first of two more, then the and after two. In that case *part of* the rhythm can be compound, but in no way is 8 a compound, which means compound of 3 and 2. There we have a double syncopation.
Another way a tango is expressed has a strong 3 and 4, not a clave.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 88 posts since 17 Sep, 2021
Very nicely explained !jancivil wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:28 am For ideas sake, we can act like the first couple 3s are 6/8, _then_ a 2/8.
So for instance once of the ways Piazzolo has expressed the rhythm of "Libertango" begins with 2 dotted 16ths, the 2nd tied to the first of two more, then the and after two. In that case *part of* the rhythm can be compound, but in no way is 8 a compound, which means compound of 3 and 2. There we have a double syncopation.
Another way a tango is expressed has a strong 3 and 4, not a clave.
