Wotja 22 - Generative Music App & Plug-in Host (Free, Pro; AUv3 / VST3)

[impete]

however i stand by my claim that it should still work with the experimental engine ON, since it works with other MIDI plugs (ie. Reason Rack)

Well, I can but suggest that as Wotja MIDI routing works with every DAW (AFAIK!) on Windows, and that the only exception *seems* to be the "Experimental" engine in Tracktion, that points to a bug in the current version of the "Experimental" engine.

In which case, it'd be interesting to see what they come back with if you were to report that as a bug to them (I presume they want user feedback on it, it being described as Experimental, after all!).

Best wishes, Pete

[JamminFool]

ok.

it IS poorly named as it suggests there may be problems with it, but it is actually the default and recommended engine in Waveform and has been for some time.

so most users are going to be encountering the problem. i really don;t know what else to say except that i hope the Tracktion support staff can help you understand why it is not working.

thanks for your patience regarding all this...much appreciated!

[JamminFool]

@pete,
i can't really report this as a bug to Tracktion since for every other MIDI outputting plug that I have tested (so far, Reason Rack, Sonic Charge Microtonic, and Loomer Architect), it works regardless of which engine is used in Waveform.

Wotja is the only plug i have which fails when the experimental engine is turned on. i already know that Tracktion will refer me back to you.

[zzz00m]

Hey, just Fyi: one other important note about Tracktion Waveform and the MIDI Monitor. The MIDI Monitor will NOT detect any MIDI if it is the only plugin on a track. It needs to be placed in front of another plugin on the same track that is capable of receiving MIDI before Waveform will route ANY MIDI to that track so that it can be monitored.

[zzz00m]

@pete,
i can't really report this as a bug to Tracktion since for every other MIDI outputting plug that I have tested (so far, Reason Rack, Sonic Charge Microtonic, and Loomer Architect), it works regardless of which engine is used in Waveform.

Wotja is the only plug i have which fails when the experimental engine is turned on. i already know that Tracktion will refer me back to you.

I would probably have to suggest at this point to use another DAW with Wotja. I agree with the assessment that this would most likely be an issue with Tracktion.

And in the past, I don't believe that MIDI was Tracktion's highest development priority. I reported several issues with MIDI starting with version 8, and they were like they would try to improve that in the next release. And I think that the "Experimental Engine" is actually an experimental audio engine.

The following post is from another thread by the Traction developer:

Hi all, as you may have heard on here we’ve been working hard over the past few months to rewrite the audio engine to fix some long standing issues.

We’re at the stage now where this is ready for some beta testing. As usual with beta software please only use this on new, test projects to avoid any issues with critical data and make sure to backup any existing data.

Firstly, download and install Waveform v11.1.14 from your Downloads page on tracktion.com. Once you’ve done that, open up the DAW and go to the “General Behaviour” settings page and enable the new “Enable experimental Engine processing” option.
To start with, use the default “Hybrid” processing algorithm (more on that below).

The main result of using this engine is that it should fix PDC in all of the situations we’ve been made aware of including:

• Across tracks

• Between multiple send/return auxes on different tracks

• Between multiple Rack instances on different tracks

• Any combination of Racks and auxes

• Within Racks with parallel branches with plugins of different latencies

• When plugins are bypassed they now maintain consistent latency

Additionally, depending on the layout of your Edit and its contents, you could see up to a 30% performance improvement from the non-experimental engine. I’d be keen to hear your feedback on this.

---

As I mentioned above, we have three different threading models we’re trialling to see what works best for different machines. Feel free to try them out and let us know how they differ on your hardware. Here’s a guide to what they mean and the behaviour we’ve seen with them.

• Signalling: Uses a signalling system for audio processing threads. This should be the least CPU intensive but has the highest jitter so the risk of dropouts is probably highest.

• Real-time: Tries to avoid any signalling primitives to give the most real-time safe operation. With this we’ve found typically ~20% higher CPU usage compared to the existing engine but a more consistent processing load so dropouts shouldn’t happen as easily.

• Hybrid: This is combination of the above two methods which should give good CPU usage whilst reducing the number of dropouts.

Although the experimental engine should sound the same as the old one, we have had to rewrite the entire playback graph so there is a chance we’ve missed something. If you notice any audio difference please let us know so we can fix them.

We hope you like the changes introduced in this release. It’s still a work in progress so any feedback is much appreciated.

Cheers!
Dave

[impete]

I've just reminded the Tracktion devs that there is an issue with the Experimental Audio engine in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=576200&p=8337952#p8337952

Pete

[JamminFool]

I've just reminded the Tracktion devs that there is an issue with the Experimental Audio engine in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=576200&p=8337952#p8337952

Pete

Tracktion Support told me that they do not monitor the forum for bugs, so that post will probably not make a difference.

i am trying to make a summary of the issues I am seeing and will attempt to submit it formally to Tracktion Support.

however, i still think that there remains something about the MIDI output of Wotja that is resulting in Waveform throwing the data NOT on channel 1 away when it is re-routed to another track directly (without the use of Tracktion Racks).
*

WotjaPro22 to Kontakt .jpg

in this picture, you can see that the MIDI arriving on track 2 has been stripped of it's channel 2 data and the timing offsets have been modified.

if you substitute either Reason Rack or Loomer Architect for WotjaPro, you will see that the MIDI data arriving at Track 2 is exactly the same as when it leaves WotjaPro BUT you have to turn the Experimental Engine ON for Reason Rack (oh the irony - as this is backwards from Wotja22).

If you turn it OFF, Reason Rack also gets all channels except channel 1 data stripped. but at least the data that DOES arrive is the same as what is shown on track 1 (the timing offsets have not been modified).

Loomer Architect is the only one that works all the time, regardless of the state of the Experimental Engine.

there is a lot to digest here, but my conclusion is that there are several problems - some of which may be Wotja, some of which may be Waveform, and some of which may be Reason Rack.

the good news is that i have purchased WotjaPro 22 because i think it is a really cool program.

[impete]

the good news is that i have purchased WotjaPro 22 because i think it is a really cool program.

Thank you very much indeed

Pete

[JamminFool]

WotjaPro22 to Kontakt .jpg

in this picture, you can see that the MIDI arriving on track 2 has been stripped of it's channel 2 data and the timing offsets have been modified.

this indicates that Waveform does not see the MIDI as valid and is attempting to "fix" it by removing and/or modifying it, per Jules' observation/comments in the Tracktion forum thread.

[DarkStar]

Maybe you have already down this, but perhaps you can email ZIPped-up problem projects to Intermorphic so they (and the beta testers) can have a closer look?

You will need to fill in the Contact Forum first: https://intermorphic.com/help/contact/ Then attach the .zip to any email reply.

[JamminFool]

thanks Darkstar, i may do that, but have assumed that they won't necessarily have the same plugs that i do, so i have resorted to trying to explain the problem generically, assuming that it would be investigated as a potential general issue.

if requested, i would be happy to provide any info and/or project files necessary.

[zzz00m]

however, i still think that there remains something about the MIDI output of Wotja that is resulting in Waveform throwing the data NOT on channel 1 away when it is re-routed to another track

That wasn't my experience in Waveform 11 Pro when I sent Wotja 22 Pro MIDI directly to a multi-timbral instrument plugin on another track. All channels sent were received at the instrument. No racks used.

But this only worked with the Waveform experimental engine disabled.

[zzz00m]

Maybe you have already down this, but perhaps you can email ZIPped-up problem projects to Intermorphic so they (and the beta testers) can have a closer look?

You will need to fill in the Contact Forum first: https://intermorphic.com/help/contact/ Then attach the .zip to any email reply.

With all due respect, it's probably not worth Intermorphic's time (1 developer) to pursue a Traction fix, as Wotja performs acceptably with their standard engine.

I have owned Waveform since version 8, and it always appears to be in perpetual beta. Hardly a benchmark to develop plugins by.

Don't get me wrong as I respect the Tracktion guys, and I have been supporting them by buying their products, but they seem to often be on the "bleeding edge" of technology. Waveform has often crashed unexpectedly for me using various plugins. So I no longer consider it one of my go-to DAWs, but it is interesting to play around with on occasion.

[JamminFool]

With all due respect, it's probably not worth Intermorphic's time (1 developer) to pursue a Traction fix, as Wotja performs acceptably with their standard engine.

unless it reveals an underlying bug. i think the data i am providing indicates it is worth investigating.

[JamminFool]

however, i still think that there remains something about the MIDI output of Wotja that is resulting in Waveform throwing the data NOT on channel 1 away when it is re-routed to another track

That wasn't my experience in Waveform 11 Pro when I sent Wotja 22 Pro MIDI directly to a multi-timbral instrument plugin on another track. All channels sent were received at the instrument. No racks used.

But this only worked with the Waveform experimental engine disabled.

YMMV.
if you examine the picture you can see that the data has been changed when it arrives on track 2.
i'm not saying that Tracktion is not at fault, but Jules' himself indicated they toss/modify data that isn't proper, and since other MIDI generating plugs work, it is worth looking at more closely.