(Long Thread) Will DAWs ever get to evolve?

[WeeGee]

Here is an interesting thread from a different audio forum... (I'm not sure about blaming the whole thing on the VST format though):

Hello,

I'm inviting you to a more "looking at the future" kind of conversation about producing/composing. To us who are used to working with DAWs, plugins, samplers, routing, Kontakt etc, the technical parts and processes seem trivial, but the number one thing I hear from beginners all the time is things like "why is this so difficult". Most of the time I just take this kind of comment with a grain of salt (because beginners are sometimes just lazy) but how often I hear this from students just got me thinking.

Take composing something with an orchestral Kontakt library for example. It's hard for a beginner to wrap their head around keyswitches, routing, expression maps, etc. Why isn't the DAW just smart enough to scan Kontakt and figure out how to map/route things automatically, and let us focus our time purely on the writing aspect instead? We have the tech and the know-how. Why doesn't the industry go toward that direction?

Well, first I understand that for the creators of DAWs developing something that scans and integrates 3rd party software in that level can be a snowball of complications. My knowledge of programming and code is rudimentary, but I assume this would involve needing to know the source code of whichever plugin you are trying to implement, and companies obviously won't just release their source code out in the wild out of the goodness of their hearts. Corrrect me if I'm wrong, but I believe this could be a reason.

But what I think is the argument I would disagree with the most (I've been agreeing so far, but OK) is that things are the way they are because they always have been. That's just no excuse in the world of software. Every single industry that has transitioned to the digital age has had their software significantly changed/improved in some way. Video editing, 3D modelling, architecture, photo editing, animation, video effects, etc, but audio/music software for some reason is still functioning the same way it has since the 90s. Heck, take notation software for instance. For decades Sibelius and Finale have had no improvement on how they function.
Sure, Dorico and StaffPad came in and brought new things/ways to use notation software, but I wouldn't call them "revolutionary" by any means. Revolutionary means it's so good it becomes a standard, and notation software is so slow to catch up to anything I doubt it even made much impact.

And I don't think a lack of competition is the cause of this (although it might be in the case of notation software). There are plenty of companies making DAWs, but they are so similar to a point it becomes hard to recommend a DAW, especially to a beginner.

Which leads me to the title of this post... Those who are more tech savvy than me can correct me, but what if the VST format (the one every DAW uses) is actually the culprit?
Think about it: DAWs are built around it, and it has existed since the beginning of producing digitally, and has not changed. It has been UPDATED, but not changed (and not every company has updated their plugins to VST3). Who owns the VST format, why is it still prevalent, and could ditching it for an alternative in the future make DAWs more straightforward to use?

Let me know what you think... It's a lot in one post but I think it's an interesting discussion, especially because it's not discussed enough.

[vurt]

dont know if they need to evolve faster?

but clap is an upcoming vst alternative.
read up on it in the uhe forum.

[Uncle E]

Native Instruments and Akai make hardware that automatically map
Akai makes software that makes any MIDI controller automatically map
Presonus, Nektar, Softube, Akai, and Native Instruments make hardware that are preset to work with their software

Whoever originally wrote that post isn't aware of Maschine and current MPC's.

[melomood]

See that

Evolving every day

[WeeGee]

Native Instruments and Akai make hardware that automatically map
Akai makes software that makes any MIDI controller automatically map
Presonus, Nektar, Softube, Akai, and Native Instruments make hardware that are preset to work with their software

Whoever originally wrote that post isn't aware of Maschine and current MPC's.

OP is talking about the software side of producing, not hardware. Also about DAWs that could analyze and automatically map to any third party plugin.

[Uncle E]

OP is talking about the software side of producing, not hardware. Also about DAWs that could analyze and automatically map to any third party plugin.

The examples I gave are only the tip of the iceberg. XLN Audio and Waves use AI to find samples. EastWest Opus creates automatic orchestrations. Sonible has smart:EQ, smart:Comp, smart:Limit, and smart:Reverb.

Then you have all the products that are all made to sound exactly how people want to sound right out of the box. MPC. Maschine. Nexus. Spectrasonics.

It all just seems like bizarre criticism when it is easier now than any other time in history to write, record, and release professional quality music. I taught a Computers & Music class for 10 years at a local college, any student who was motivated and dedicated figured it out, regardless of their skill level when they entered the class.

[Googly Smythe]

nm

[DJ Warmonger]

Heck, take notation software for instance. For decades Sibelius and Finale have had no improvement on how they function.

It's the musicans who keep using few hundred years old notation - complicated and redundant, at least when it comes to notes and staffs.

If music notation would be introduced today, no standarization commitee would agree on this mess. That's why computers use MIDI, which is simple and uniform.

Video editing, 3D modelling, architecture, photo editing, animation, video effects, etc, but audio/music software for some reason is still functioning the same way it has since the 90s

It's the money vs output. For instance video production industry has much higher business value, so employing AI for automatic color adjustments, transitions, object removal or tracking is just profitable investment, resulting in faster time-to-market and overall better quality.

Whereas there are millions musicans who prefer to do stuff "on their own" and will supply cheap labour by themselves. Many also frown upon any automagic production tools.

If you look at any game or movie credits, there are hundreds of content creators involved, but only a single composer or band. Any workflow improvement for content creators is a substantial saving of time and money. At the same time there are many composers hoping for their moment while their music ends up in a drawer.

[Iconoklast]

Well, DAWs have been evolving for DECADES, but it does not mean they will assist you in making BETTER music...Some of the best tunes I have heard were done in trackers 20 years ago...

Problem is that many novices are too lazy to learn actual music, the music nowadays that they listen to is not actually music at all as it is so watered & dumbed down...

They also wish the 'DAW' to do virtually everything or will wait for that 'feature' or 'plugin' that will do all the magical stuff...So what's the point?...Go play video games then...

Others who may be more serious are bogged down by the complexity of DAWs sequencers & plugins with terabytes of libraries...

Tracker types make great music using simple sample-based instruments but novices are never introduced to such DAWs-Sequencers these days or even a simple MAINSTREAM current DAW...It's ALWAYS Ableton-FL Studio-Cubase-ETC ETC...

Novices should be introduced to a simple SAMPLE-BASED workflow first anyways, not kontakt...There are many other samplers out there simpler & quite good...

Some good examples of DAWS-Sequencers-

-Zynewave Podium (Very Good)
-EnergyXT (Very Good but not updated)
-Synapse Audio Orion (don't think available anymore)
-Bremmer's MultiTrack Studio (very good)
-MuTools MuLab (very Good)
-LMMS (Free & now pretty good)
-MaCaw (Free, Recommended for SF2s...A favorite)
-N-Track Studio (finally fixed VST scanning)
-Reaper (older version)

and more...

The Trackers list is longer...Don't really recommend Renoise for a beginner...

-Protrekkr (a personal favorite)
-MED SoundStudio 2.1 (uses VSTs, built-in HighLife Engine, A personal favorite)
-OpenMPT (uses VSTs)
-Psycle (has piano roll also) (uses VSTs)
-Buzz (uses VSTs)
-BUZE (has piano roll also) (uses VSTs, MFX, LADSPA-LUNAR)
-MilkyTracker
-Arguru Aodix (has piano roll) (uses VSTs-ONLY)
-MadTracker (Commercial & very good...More recommended to a beginner) (uses VSTs)
-SkaleTracker (uses SF2 & AKAI formats) (uses VSTs-limited)

& many more.....

There are some oddballs that are abandonware or no longer developed...if you want SIMPLE-FAST try -

Chaotic Music Maker (intelligent design, source released)
Bram Bros Tuareg 2.5 FAT (free since 2010)
Bram Bros Tunafish (free since 2010)
IoNeo Aero Studio (abandonware, dual tracker-piano roll & uses VSTs)
LUNA (OLD MuLab) (uses VSTs) (very simple)
EvoBeats Sequential Vibes (simplest tracker but uses VST-DX-DMO as well as samples)


I find a simpler approach yields faster results with less getting in the way...

I have a posting of Protrekkr (multi-platform) at oldschooldaw & have shared an easy 1,200 instruments of my over 3,000 created for Protrekkr...ALL internal FX, NO VSTs, simple, sounds great-

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/inde ... 302.0.html



Chaotic Music Maker is very well thought out & uses VSTs AND simple sample based instruments with some features not seen anywhere else, piano roller...Source released years ago but no binary, so I have provided the old 'medicated'-

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/inde ... 341.0.html



MED SoundStudio was released a free like 5 years ago & is excellent choice for beginner...Has many ways of generating sound & you can even render down to self-contained EXE...I have made a good number of HILIFE instruments shared here-

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/inde ... 301.0.html



Bram Bros Tuareg 2.5 FAT was released free in 2010...Sample-based workflow with some internal synths, beat slicer, some curves automation & nice potent internal FX (piano roller)...Great for beginner...I have made a few packs for it as well-

http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/inde ... 343.0.html

[apoclypse]

Here is an interesting thread from a different audio forum... (I'm not sure about blaming the whole thing on the VST format though):

*snip*

The issue is that plugin developers don't use or take advantage of that either because they have their own vested interests (ie selling a keyboard with keyswitching features built in, or a "special" preset format because they want you to use their preset browser). NI wants you to buy/use Komplete Kontrol they have no interest in making it easier for you to use their products without paying them for the privilege.

I think there are too many special interests in the VST and DAW world to make this possible imo.

[jules99]

I think you're on to something there. Only KVR does not seem like the place anymore that has the forward- and open-minded people to actually follow that train of thought. Many new ideas and plugins are shot down here, just because they are new and different.

The amount of technical and theoretical knowledge and proficiency on at least one instrument required to produce on even a semi professional level is staggering. And DAWs and plugins have long only replicated the overly technical workflow from the studio. Which requires said knowledge and proficiency.

We're slowly, very slowly moving away from that. But only in the last few years, replication has been overtaken by innovation in music production. But the choir of the "it's always been like this" and the "if you don't learn it the hard way like I did,you're not even worthy" is still loud.

[whyterabbyt]

Who owns the VST format

Steinberg, as basic research would have indicated.

, why is it still prevalent

inertia, basically.

, and could ditching it for an alternative in the future make DAWs more straightforward to use?

No, because they have nothing at all to do with DAW-side functionality.

[whyterabbyt]

Only KVR does not seem like the place anymore that has the forward- and open-minded people to actually follow that train of thought.

except you, amiright?

Many new ideas and plugins are shot down here, just because they are new and different.

Meanwhile, many new ideas and plugins are embraced here, just because they are new and different.

[Fraggle]

Do you not consider bitwig to be an example of DAWs evolving ???

[NikkiA]

Do you not consider bitwig to be an example of DAWs evolving ???

Not really, it's much acclaimed 'Grid' is just a refinement of FL's Patcher and Logic's Environment, everything else in it seems fairly standard, or is entirely lacking like step recording.