KVR Audio

Zipede · Post by **Zipede** » Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:38 pm

What is the maximum latency you are able to work with, if you are trying to play in the pocket, for finger drumming?

RunBeerRun · Post by **RunBeerRun** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:41 pm

5ms in/ 5ms out

I can still feel the latency but it sounds ok to me.

Roman Wisniak · Post by **Roman Wisniak** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:10 pm

On Ryzen 7 5800X I was working all the time with 64 samples of latency (RME USB Digiface). Now I'm on Intel Core 7 12700H (laptop) and working latencies on the same audio interface are 128 and 256 samples of latency. Intel is more powerful but requires more samples of latency.

Zipede · Post by **Zipede** » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:53 pm

RunBeerRun wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:41 pm 5ms in/ 5ms out

I can still feel the latency but it sounds ok to me.

I'm get a 6.35ms round trip, I still feel that a little, but that setting allows all my other plug-ins to work without pops/clicks. I'm wondering if other people can play with feel at higher settings.

Roman Wisniak wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:10 pm On Ryzen 7 5800X I was working all the time with 64 samples of latency (RME USB Digiface). Now I'm on Intel Core 7 12700H (laptop) and working latencies on the same audio interface are 128 and 256 samples of latency. Intel is more powerful but requires more samples of latency.

How many ms do you get and does it affect your ability to play with a groove?

legendCNCD · Post by **legendCNCD** » Sun May 01, 2022 2:00 pm

Playing, 256 samples max. Thats about 12ms here I think. Other half of us prefers 64 as he is so fast

I really need that new machine&soundcard

2DaT · Post by **2DaT** » Sun May 01, 2022 3:34 pm

Zipede wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:53 pm How many ms do you get and does it affect your ability to play with a groove?

Well, human muscules already have a lot of latency (from 20 to 100s of milliseconds). Your brain does the compensation for you. It's possible to train yourself to play not in time but with correct timing. Organs have big delay between key press and sound, yet good organists play in time just fine.

But if we are talking about latency which does not require adjustment, it's somewhere around 5ms or so. 15 ms is definitely noticeable on guitar which is very tactile instrument.

Also some plugins may add latency even if they don't report it. Especially if there is oversampling involved.

AdvancedFollower · Post by **AdvancedFollower** » Mon May 02, 2022 2:03 pm

I've been using 256 samples at 48 KHz for a long time, to the point where I'm pretty much used to the latency and it almost feels weird if I go lower. That's about 5.3ms either way or twice that for round-trip.

Zipede · Post by **Zipede** » Mon May 02, 2022 9:44 pm

2DaT wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 3:34 pm
Zipede wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:53 pm How many ms do you get and does it affect your ability to play with a groove?
It's possible to train yourself to play not in time but with correct timing.

But if we are talking about latency which does not require adjustment, it's somewhere around 5ms or so. 15 ms is definitely noticeable on guitar which is very tactile instrument.

I'm pretty happy with my current setting for keys and guitar, until my recent set up I was working at around 13ms, I found that affected my guitar playing, especially if I was trying to play a funky rhythm.

I'm fairly new to finger drumming though, and finding a good feel has eluding me. I was wondering what latency people feel is necessary to play with feel or "in the pocket".

AdvancedFollower wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:03 pm I've been using 256 samples at 48 KHz for a long time, to the point where I'm pretty much used to the latency and it almost feels weird if I go lower. That's about 5.3ms either way or twice that for round-trip.

I keep changing my setting between 6.35ms and 3.45 depending on what I'm playing, maybe that isn't really helping.

ratchov · Post by **ratchov** » Thu May 05, 2022 11:32 am

Here are two orders of magnitude:

2.6 ms (128 samples at 48kHz) is the time it takes the sound to travel 90cm, which is of the order of magnitude of the latency of acoustic drums, for instance.

1.3 ms (64 samples at 48kHz) is slightly more that the time it takes for a MIDI message to go though the MIDI cable, before any processing even can start (3-byte message at 3.125 kB/s = 0.96 ms)

FWIW, I don't feel any difference when I lower latency below 6ms.

Scotty · Post by **Scotty** » Thu May 05, 2022 12:06 pm

Two preferences one for live recording and one for mixing. (Using RME Raydats here)

For live tracking off the floor with acoustic instruments 64 samples is fine. If I have some latency inducing plugins in the monitoring signal path I'll track at 32 samples but that is rarely needed.

For mixing, I tend to go to 512 samples with my newish Ryzen 5950x. On my recently retired and repurposed PC I was mixing at 1024 samples to prevent CPU overages.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Thu May 05, 2022 12:26 pm

Zipede wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:53 pm
RunBeerRun wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:41 pm 5ms in/ 5ms out

I can still feel the latency but it sounds ok to me.
I'm get a 6.35ms round trip, I still feel that a little, but that setting allows all my other plug-ins to work without pops/clicks.

I'm really surprised that you guys feel that little latency. I don't feel any delay with 20 ms latency...

I'm not at all a keyboard player though. Just play in a few notes, at max.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu May 05, 2022 1:41 pm

chk071 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:26 pm
Zipede wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:53 pm
RunBeerRun wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:41 pm 5ms in/ 5ms out

I can still feel the latency but it sounds ok to me.
I'm get a 6.35ms round trip, I still feel that a little, but that setting allows all my other plug-ins to work without pops/clicks.
I'm really surprised that you guys feel that little latency. I don't feel any delay with 20 ms latency...

I'm not at all a keyboard player though. Just play in a few notes, at max.

It’s their imagination. At those times, latency isn’t much different than listening to a musician that’s sitting a few feet away from you and thinking, “woah, the delay!”

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Thu May 05, 2022 1:46 pm

Zipede wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:38 pm What is the maximum latency you are able to work with, if you are trying to play in the pocket, for finger drumming?

128 if generally fine, though I work at 64 these days. People can automatically adjust, like they do when they play in a room with acoustic musicians. No one complains that the drummer is 3 meters away and they can’t deal with the delay.

Markus Krause · Post by **Markus Krause** » Thu May 05, 2022 2:12 pm

The minimum timing resolution that the human ear can detect is 10 ms (=0.01s).

0.01s * 44100 = 441 samples (@ 44Khz samplerate)
0.01s * 96000 = 996 samples (@ 96Khz samplerate)

Anything below 256 samples does not make much sense and messes up the CPU cache (dropouts get more likely).

2DaT · Post by **2DaT** » Thu May 05, 2022 6:55 pm

Markus Krause wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 2:12 pm The minimum timing resolution that the human ear can detect is 10 ms (=0.01s).

0.01s * 44100 = 441 samples (@ 44Khz samplerate)
0.01s * 96000 = 996 samples (@ 96Khz samplerate)

Anything below 256 samples does not make much sense and messes up the CPU cache (dropouts get more likely).

Buffer size is not the only source of latency. AD,DA converters have latency. Drivers may have safety buffers and so on.

Also "timing resolution" is very debatable. I guess for keyboard it doesn't matter, but if you play tactile instruments such as guitar, additional latency is very noticeable.

Personally I do notice going from 64 to 128 @44.1k , but 64 to 32 not so much.

What latency are you happy working with?