Ableton Suite or Bitwig (advice for someone coming from Renoise)?

[Korg Supporter]

I am aware that there are Lite/trial versions, and I have just started getting into both. I like to have a cool DAW besides Renoise, and I want to know if Ableton or Bitwig would be better for me. I only make tracks for fun atm (Trance or other melodic stuff), and therefore I don't rely on sound design too much unless I want to make my own sounds. I prefer to use scenes instead of a timeline (which both have). I heard that Bitwig is more stable, reliable, and uses less CPU. However, I am drawn to the sound library and exclusive instruments that Bitwig lacks. Ableton also allows you to do one click for adding and deleting notes in the piano roll whereas, in Bitwig, you have to double click to remove notes. This is one of the reasons I have found Ableton faster and more responsive to use. I also like to have Ableton for the Fors M4L devices such as Chiral and Superberry. Tbh, if I already have instruments like Viper, Karma FX, Largo, Blue 2, Omnisphere, and the Korg Collection, does it really matter? Also, which DAW's FX do you prefer?

[DJ Warmonger]

I also make trance in Ableton, so let me list some vital points:

+ Clip view is great for creating loops and trying different melody or intensity variations. Especially awesome for progressive stuff.
+ Live Suite onboard effects are very useful and creative. This includes Racks with macros, Echo, Drum Bus, Corpus, arpeggiators and LFOs plus tons in official expansion packs.
+ Sample manipulation is great for adding acents, variations or just sound design
+ Since version 11 comping is supported, which I use not only for live synth takes, but also layering sounds and seqencing loops.
+ Live has native support for a variety of controllers, and there is Push 2 of course if you want it.
- Built-in libraries are not very interesting once you have Kontakt or some such.
+ However, there is vast collection of experimental sounds and one-shots for creative sound design.
- Max4Live was a hit or miss for me, sometimes devices just stop to work until Live is updated.

[ReleaseCandidate]

It's easy: if you don't want or need the Grid or the modulation Bitwig offers, there is no reason to use Bitwig, Live 11 does just about everything better than Bitwig.
My personal answer is 'both' (buying a 'used' license here, usually there are many Bitwig licenses available), but if I were to use only one, that would be Live.

[ralfrobert]

I have both. In my opinion, Bitwig is more 21st century than Ableton. Just experiment with the grid and see if you like what it gives you. The complimentary offers are better with Ableton. For example, if you buy from Puremagnetik or Samples from Mars, you get premapped kits.

As for the quality of the builtins: I think Ableton is second to none.

[SLiC]

I have both also and agree you can get Bitwig cheap second hand (no suite version so much cheaper anyway).

The content with Live Suite is outstanding, probably everything you will ever need and if you go the PUSH2 route it really feels like you are using hardware and everything can be done with efficiently and in real time, its fast and very stable. MAX has really come in to its own since V8 with MPE etc, you can build commercial quality instrument it if you want to get in that, but you don't need to as there are many 1000's of instruments and fx to download free and some great commercial offerings for cheap (https://maxforlive.com/). I think Live has the cleanest interface and simplest uncluttered workflow.

Bitwig has some great features and of course the grid which is fairly easy to use (easier than MAX) but I just haven't used it much. Its sort of like having Reactor built into a DAW. Bitwig has a lot of tricks like the unified modulation system which is genius, but you can still get a lot of modulation in Live and of course there are tools like Shaperbox which offer a great modulation solution in any DAW. You could do anything in either DAW, but I would say Bitwig lean's more to experimental, ambient, modular etc. Its like a big instrument with a built in DAW!

If I had to pick just one it would be Live Suite, but I don't so I have them both

[kmonkey]

I use Live for years. Just recently I started with Bitwig and it's (for me) much much better and everything works super tight especially with the hardware drum machines and synths which have their own sequencers. This is horror in Live. I mean timing is tight in Live as you use Live to generate MIDI exclusively - unless you own hardware gear with their own sequencers then you can forget about precise timing and clock unless you purchase 500 EUR external MIDI clock. This is NOT happening with Bitwig. And no I am not doing it wrong - it was confirmed by Live staff.

The Max for Live idea was great back then and it was deciding factor (for me) - however over the years it turned to be VERY unstable piece of software. Even their own M4L plugins are not solid and you can not count on these if you want stable sessions. Otherwise Ableton is perfectly stable, but M4L is a gimmick if you love stability over experimental features.

And (again) no it's not my computer, several times I talked with Live support and they confirmed bugs in M4l devices which are shipped under their own umbrella (so to speak) but the problem is that most of those are outsorced by 3rd party and thus you (and they) depend on well...3rd side.

Beside that you can go here: https://maxforlive.com/ try and find something cool, load it and it crashes your Live instantly. Then you need to harass and beg developer to fix issues. And so on.

In Bitwig you can accomplish kinda same plus much much more in different way and it's perfectly stable because you can build your devices with objects which are native to the DAW itself (in the lack of finding better description).

I feel sorry for not discovering Bitwig earlier however I can perfectly see Ableton being better to someone else. It really is personal so I suggest try-trial both.

[liquidsound]

If you want to produce fast and to the point:
Ableton.

If you like to get lost in an endless and inviting modulation rabbit hole (losing your compass):
Bitwig.

[panspOrmia]

Loyal Renoise and Reaper user here. Not a huge fan of Ableton Live, but I bought it just so I have access to all the awesome Max for Live devices available..

[xbitz]

check the non-official BWS request site https://bitwish.top/votes if can't find anything which prevents you to use Bitwig then Bitwig (or Reaper )

[Tj Shredder]

Bitwig is so much more inspiring… The only argument for Live would be Max4Live, but it didn’t get me there, though I am a hardcore Max/MSP user since almost 30 years…

[SLiC]

I think the main argument for Live is hardware and 3rd party software support (live packs and instruments etc). It’s also much more mainstream if you are working with others.

[Echoes in the Attic]

It's easy: if you don't want or need the Grid or the modulation Bitwig offers, there is no reason to use Bitwig, Live 11 does just about everything better than Bitwig.
My personal answer is 'both' (buying a 'used' license here, usually there are many Bitwig licenses available), but if I were to use only one, that would be Live.

This really isn't true. Bitwig offers a ton more and is way more smartly designed. I don't use the Grid at all, and I don't particularly like the Bitwig native synths. But Bitwig just makes so many things so much easier, such as:
-Hybrid tracks where you can audio clips and midi clips triggering instruments or midi controlled effects. Also useful for bouncing slips right in place, not needing another track.
-Multi-out plugins: You get all your audio chains for multi-output plugins right there on the track, much like audio rack layers. Saved the routing to those bus tracks.
-You can put multiuple instruments in a row which can take midi passed from one to another and can both receive midi. In Live you need multiple tracks for things like this.
-The Remote Control pages are brilliant and let you arrange controls how you want, also you can duplicate controls on multiple remote pages. In Live you can only change the order of plugin parameters, no spaces, no duplication. Much harder to organize for controllers like Push.
-The plugin delay compensation works in situations where live's doesn't like synced audio effects.
-The mpe implementation is better in Bitwig (Records the actual midi channel played in)
-Much better audio editing and rearranging in Bitwig
-Master and Send effect tracks have clips in Bitwig
-Side by side arrange and clip views
-Macros are much better designed, they use relative modulation, rather than making the target parameter un-tweakable, as in Live. This is a huge annoyance in Live.
-Bitwig is multi-touch on windows. Live isn't.
-Bitwig's concept of having effects within the feedback path of certain effect devices is really cool
-Bitwigs browser is better imo.
-A full featured multi-sampler (with granular and wave cycles modes) comes with Bitwig (as opposed to Live's sampler being an addition)

Those are just a few I think of, but I'm sure there's lots of other things other people care about.
And when it comes to the modulation system in general, it may not be a need, but it makes things so much easier with being relative modulation, than equivalents in Live like an envelope or lfo, as those locks the controls, which bitwig doesn't do.

[BazJacuzzi]

My biggest gripe with Ableton is the lack of latency compensation in the gui. If you have any plugins inserted that add latency (or latency from your soundcard) the playhead doesn't line up with the audio. It's the only DAW that does this, and it's fundamentally broken. Something to be aware of before you drop $750 on it.

[SLiC]

Bitwig browser is better is a bit of an understatement imo…the pop up browser is light years ahead of Live. In clip audio editing was one of Bitwig killer features on launch as it was a frequently requested live feature and one of the thinks I miss most when using Live.

[Lu PsY FeR]

I would advise you to buy used licenses of both, use them and later, sell the one which you use the least.