What is the most accurate auto categorisation sample scanner ?

[Xenon20]

Hi all,

With sample managers such as Loopcloud, XO, Sononym, (and others?), your personal folders are added and scanned and the samples are put into categories or given tags based on the type of sound. This ability to scan the samples to auto categorise them seems to be a very useful starting point for organising sample libraries.

Q. Which software that can scan and auto-categorise or tag samples gives the most accurate results ?

I'm looking to find an option which then allows you to filter the results and copy the filtered results to a new folder or location for further refinement.

[yellowmix]

XO is most accurate for drum sounds. Sononym is most accurate for everything else. Neither tags or modifies files; they build databases that hold metadata.

XO can export copies of raw samples but there is no bulk export or file management. It uses a SQLite database which can be accessed directly with any SQLite tool. So if you are capable of programming you can create automatic file management by reading file location and other relevant data from its database. But only for drum sounds.

Sononym uses SQLite 3, so you can do the same. If you have no programming skills or desire, in-app, there is a Projects feature but Export produces only copies of samples. Keep in mind, the common user wants a non-destructive workflow with their sample library. However, if you have double the space, you can Export anyway, then use a duplicate file finder to delete the ones in the old location. Since they're exact duplicates a bit-for-bit search will ensure no false positives.

However, I ask you to reconsider this project. I've done what you desire to do long ago. It was an absolute nightmare trying to figure out licensing rights since the relevant information did not come with the file. With tools like XO and Sononym, it's easy enough to find the relevant audio wherever they reside (along with the licensing info). So I undid all the previous organizing.

If you want something really fast and super-accurate nothing beats files with metadata already attached. If you are in sound design and buy from developers like Boom Library then they are metadata tagged, they come with a spreadsheet list, and the filenames reflect it. On the music side, it's the complete opposite, hardly anything is metadata tagged and the filenames are often poor (e.g., folders of "perc07.wav"). Second-best are files you've manually metadata-tagged. So you're looking at something like Soundminer, a sound asset manager. It's extremely powerful but pretty pricey, and not really geared for musical samples. There's a similar (in basic functionality) app that's free from SoundParticles called Explorer: https://soundparticles.com/products/explorer However, like Soundminer it's really geared for foley/sound design purposes, not so much musical.

You might also be interested in Resonic. It reads all sorts of metadata including Soundminer and it's blazing fast. If you have your samples in some logical folder hierarchy it's actually not bad. I have it organized by developer with a subfolder per product, and I will rearrange its subfolders to make more sense to me. And with Sononym's similarity search, you can find just one sample and let it do its thing.

[Xenon20]

Thank you for your informative response.

I currently have all my samples (way too many) under two folders; Libraries and Sample packs.
I want to slim this down to a managable number of my favourites (I reckon probably around 20% of what I have), and I want to be able to get to the sound I want quickly and accurately - for example, I don't want to click on a folder called kicks and then find loads of search results that are drum fills that have kicks in them, or other things that have been incorrectly categorised.

Truth be told I'm a bit confused on how to go about it. I've recently discoved XYplorer and it looks like it could be very useful for organising and tagging. My thinking was to first try and get all of the files organised into a logical folder hierachchy based on sound type, and this would be much easier if I could rely on the auto categorisation feature of something like sononym and then copy them into new folders (leaving the originals in place for now) and then going through each category and moving the (copied) samples where appropriate to other categories or creating new folders where required. Then I could go through and favourite all the sounds in a certain category. It does sound like a lot of work though, and I'm not 100% sure I would have the patience to finsh!

I think I need to refresh my thinking. Lets pretend I had no samples at all and I was about to buy my first sample pack. What would be the best approach for someone who is about to start building a sample library? I assume that nowadays it's more about metadata and tagging than moving files into folders based on sound type. If this is the case, what process (which isn't excessively labour intensive) would you follow and what tools would you use to do this?

That leads me to another question...is metadata and tagging the same thing ? or rather...are tags metadata ?

[yellowmix]

For the purposes of audio assets, you can consider tags and metadata to be synonymous. Metadata is anything that is not the audio data itself but about the audio data. Tags are words/phrases that describe something, so they are a type of metadata. Metadata could include BPM for a loop, and BPM is generally not considered a tag, though it could be if it's a very common one for an entire genre (e.g., Trap at 140).

If a sample pack has a variety of assets then sure, you might want to metadata tag them. The question is what metadata format to tag them in depends on what you are using to read them and can leverage them. For instance, it makes no sense to purchase Soundminer and tag it with Soundminer if, say, your DAW can't read it. But if you're using Soundminer itself since it can spot directly to some DAWs, perhaps you're okay with that.

The other question is how deep you want to tag them. Is it enough to tag something as a kick or flute loop? Are you going to note its frequency/note, length, acoustic/electronic/foley/whatever, and so on? And again, whatever tool you are using to read the tags, can it filter on these? It depends on what metadata fields are available. The deeper it is the more work it is.

What is the distinction between Libraries and Sample Packs?

[Xenon20]

What is the distinction between Libraries and Sample Packs?

My Libraries folder is things like bitwig packages, NI libraries and samples provided with software etc

you're looking at something like Soundminer, a sound asset manager. It's extremely powerful but pretty pricey, and not really geared for musical samples.

it makes no sense to purchase Soundminer and tag it with Soundminer if, say, your DAW can't read it. But if you're using Soundminer itself since it can spot directly to some DAWs, perhaps you're okay with that.

I had a look at soundminer, I'm using Biwig Studio and it doesn't look like the "spot to DAW" function is available for Bitwig. Also yes, agree, not sure it's the right thing for musical sample libraries.

If the sorting by sound type into folders is not recommended, and most of my samples don't have any (or very little) metadata, you mentioned that the manual metadata route is the next best option.

If soundminer doesn't really lend itself to musical samples or have integrated functionality with my DAW, then:

1. What other options are available to manually add/edit/embed the metadata into the files (which are more geared up for musical metadata, or have options for custom fields etc)

2. What librarians can reliably read, filter and utilise the metadata (ID3, BWAV, iXML etc)

Thanks for your input

[yellowmix]

It's a shame Bitwig's browser does not show tag metadata. So you'll need to use a third-party browser like Resonic. Resonic is blazing fast. Resonic can read many metadata formats, see the Pro version list here: https://resonic.at/pro#metadata. If you use the free version you'll need to test which ones it can read. Likely ID3. If ID3 is supported there are many tagging programs. I like mp3tag since it's easy to bring filename data into tags. But try others and see what works for your best.

ID3 has extended fields where you can add whatever field name you want. Note the metadata reading app needs to be able to look for and display it. So do some tests.

I primarily use REAPER and it has a library feature that indexes sounds into a database regardless of folder location. Then I can filter and sort by any field. That's why I don't sort files/folders by sound. REAPER's media browser has drag and drop so it would be funny if you used it purely for that feature. It's very lightweight so it wouldn't impact Bitwig.

Because of this I haven't looked for or tried many other audio browser apps. Sononym can create databases so perhaps give that a try as well.

[Burrito Whisperer]

For drum sounds I use XO. The gui is so easy to use and navigate. It makes a huge difference. I have Atlas 2 as well, and while it does something similar, XO is just better at sample selection and categorization. That said, the sequencer on Atlas is head and shoulders above XO. I'm trying to find a better system, but right now it's Atlas for all programming, then bounce midi and and use XO for sample selection.

Loops and everything else I'm still trying to figure that out. Resonic is only for windows so as a mac user that's a no go. A pity because it looks promising. I downloaded sononym and did a full scan of my library, but I've been having problems with duplicate files taking up a lot of real estate when searching. I need to set some time aside to try and figure that out.

[_leras]

My Libraries folder is things like bitwig packages, NI libraries and samples provided with software etc


I had a look at soundminer, I'm using Biwig Studio and it doesn't look like the "spot to DAW" function is available for Bitwig. Also yes, agree, not sure it's the right thing for musical sample libraries.

If the sorting by sound type into folders is not recommended, and most of my samples don't have any (or very little) metadata, you mentioned that the manual metadata route is the next best option.

Thanks for your input

The Bitwig Browser Panel may a lot of the functionality you neee already. It's really pretty comprehensive.

You can create started favourites folders to help logically arrange stuff. It covers samples, files, presets etc. Pretty sure you can i.e. make a bass drum folder and mix in samples and presets from devices or Vista if you wanted too.

You can also use it to tag things non destructively.

It's really very powerful. I have found it fairly intuitive, but no doubt you can find a good.tutorial on YouTube these days.

[RikkShow]

Waves Cosmos does a phenomenal job at tagging. But it doesn't sync tempo with the daw. So no good way to audition.

Loopcloud struggles with my imported folders and sometimes gets one third wrong. Misses the bpm or key in the file name, misses category in the folder name etc. Lots of work to clean up.

Loopcloud is good for auditioning in sync and it sends the audio into a track in your daw so you can add fx while auditioning. LC pushes their store really hard which is annoying. At one point every second search results was a store sample even when you searched for your own stuff. Now they will charge about $100/yr just to use the app. Older LC work like before so keep those installers...

Those are the only two I know well.

[Fornicras]

I have tried XO, Atlas, and Cosmos.
XO seems to be the best when categorizing, then comes Cosmos and then Atlas.
Atlas miscategorize a lot, even though it says "Hat" in the sample name it still categorizes it as Perc for example (and I know I enable the required settings for it).

On the other hand, UI and Sequencer and also configurable pad counts are better in Atlas, than XO of course.
Cosmos works with CR8, so not the same.

I don't have any idea for loops.

[dionenoid]

None of them are very accurate.

I have Atlas, XO and Sononym. Also have used ADSR, Loopcloud, Splice and some others. They're all pretty bad, with Sononym being the only one that is a little bit better than others.

Having a few hundred thousand samples means endless scanning times with any of these tools. Plus lots of skipped files, wrong tagging, hanging on longer audio files, slower opening of plugins (XO and Atlas), etc. All of them calculate wrong bpm and notes, mistake loops for one-shots, and base tags on filenames. And everytime when you add or change files they will mess things up horribly.

Best practice is to organise your samples in your preferred method yourself. Costs nothing but your time. And when migrating systems, or getting new samples, it saves a lot of hassle. That way searching through your own folders with the build-in browser in your own daw, os or plugin, is way faster and easier than anything else.

So in short : Save your money, spend some time properly organising your samples. This will save you a lot of time and frustration.