Aftertouch too heavy! What's up ?

[elena2]

Hi,
I just bought a 2nd hand CME uf80 master keyboard, a discontinued keyboard but with a touch I loved suddently plus all the features I need and which are hard to find on nowadays models (wheels vs. joysticks, many assignable controls and inputs, release velocity and aftertouch...)
It is perfect if not for one nasty detail: to trigger the aftertouch (which I need !!!) you have to apply an insane pressure... maybe even 2 or 3 Kg!!! This is true no matter which AT curve I choose, even with the softer one.

So I wonder: is it the pressure strip which with time became bad and needs being replaced ? Can actually a pressure strip deteriorate with age ??

I would like to hear your opinion, because I start suspecting it is not faulty instead but rather a projectual (debateable) choice, which would IMHO be even worse... please read the following!

Recently I tried a Studiologic SL88 studio (which I disliked for its awful action). It was brand new and... it had the same problem !!! To trigger the lowest AT midi value you had to break your finger pressing hard !

My previous old Akai MX 1000, bought 2nd hand in 2004, had the *same issue* and I had to replace the strip (an insane job)... but in that case I simply thought it was really old and faulty... but perhaps not ??

Well, my old glorious DX7s of 1988 has still a perfectly working aftertouch, which requires minimal pressure (as it should be !!!) and is still as good as when it was bought !!!

What is your opinion ? Do AT strips tend to lose performance with time ? Or are there really some manufacturers which adopt a very heavy strip ??

Thanks in advance

[chk071]

Aftertouch is very different between different keyboards (and it can even vary from key to key). I don't think you can do much about it, if it requires too much pressure. It's by design. I rather had issues with dosing the Aftertouch on my keyboards. The "range" of values when you use Aftertouch was very hard to dose on the keyboards I had so far. It was a bit better on the M-Audio Axiom 2nd gen I had, but, on the Novation Impulse I have now, it's very difficult to "dial in" a certain value. It's more like hit and hope on most keys. But, as I mentioned, it also varies between the different keys.

Aftertouch sucks anyway. For me, it's a useless function. I much rather just use the mod wheel. It's channel Aftertouch anyway, so.

[elena2]

Well it is all about habits... one may prefer the wheels or other transducers, somebody else may prefer the aftertouch. But a well calibrated after touch usually does not pose problems, i.e does not trigger unduly on key pressure, but it doesn't even require Superman to trigger it !
For example, the AT of the dx7 was perfect imho. And the aftertouch of my old akai after replacing the strips with generic ones was perfect aswell.
To me it sounds absurd that a manufacturer may employ a strip requiring 2/3 kg of force to be triggered. It is *unusable* !!!

[chk071]

Well it is all about habits... one may prefer the wheels or other transducers, somebody else may prefer the aftertouch. But a well calibrated after touch usually does not pose problems, i.e does not trigger unduly on key pressure, but it doesn't even require Superman to trigger it !

I only had 2 keyboards with Aftertouch so far, the M-Audio Axiom 2nd gen, and the Novation Impulse. Both require quite a bit of pressure to trigger Aftertouch.

[elena2]

I only had 2 keyboards with Aftertouch so far, the M-Audio Axiom 2nd gen, and the Novation Impulse. Both require quite a bit of pressure to trigger Aftertouch.

Then evidently who designed them never actually played otherwise he would have easily realized that a so hard aftertouch is not acceptable

[chk071]

I agree. It shouldn't be that hard.

[BBFG#]

Yes, depending on how the previous owner used it, AT contacts/strips can go bad (either by getting hard or mushy or not working at all). You mentioned the Studiologic feel and there are YT videos that agree and show a fix for them in adding a shim on the back side of the action. But that's mostly for velocity and eliminating the click.
AT and velocity are actually set in the global editor.
I remember trying the board you're using and being impressed with the feel with the AT/V. Wondering if an editor comes with it to change those settings first?

Note: I use the VMK+ and the SL88 and think the"best feel" for me would be something between the two.
What I dislike most in the SL is the joy stick position. (VMK+ is closer to center). And having those modulation switches so far to the left on most controllers makes it a trade off for how one can use them. Coincidentally, it's those trade offs of actual playing style that keeps me from buying the Roli-type of controllers as well.

Every company that makes controllers refuses to listen to those of us that use them predominantly and continually push their method in our face as the "best we should expect".

Back OT, check for a global editor, search YT videos for possible hacks and replace parts if you find it necessary.

[elena2]

@BBFG fully agree, manufacturers seem so stuck to their personal trends and convinctions now to the point I always had to search for models of some years ago to find the features I need !!! And yeah I hate those joysticks, and the fact most manufacturers dropped now support for release velocity, which can really do wonders with expression with custom or 3rd party synths supporting it (like pianoteq just to mention one).

Back in topic, thanks for your suggestions. I will check for YT videos. However I don't think an editor could fix the issue since I tried all the curves by setting them by the panel and it really looks a hardware related threshold. Also the UF80 editor is for xp only and I fear it won't work anymore - but will try. Replacing the strip is a PITA, I remember for my old akai mx1000 I had to take all keys apart. I should measure with a tester to see if this can be offsetted electronically or not btw

[aMUSEd]

I couldn't do without aftertouch of some kind, ideally poly but only my Seaboard supports that so I make do with channel. Much as mod wheel is useful it takes my fingers off the keys, for me there's nothing like having additional expression at the tips of my fingers, it makes playing keys feel more natural and I feel better connection with what I'm playing. All the keyboards I have the aftertouch doesn't require too much pressure and is fairly responsive, although there is variation in how they respond that you need to be aware of when playing - out of them all I think the AT response on my Korg Z1 is best, then my NI S Series 2, then my Roland V-Synth.

[elena2]

Yep aMUSEd, I also think that having that modulation feature at the tip of your finger is extra convenient and handy. And if your part requires two hands you can't use the wheel. And with AT you can spare the wheel for something else. Also I personally never cared too much if the AT triggers at a minimum when pressing a key. With a timbre exploiting aftertouch (eg. Vibrato in an electric guitar, or slight pitch bending in a pan flute) that actually increases the realism and irregular behaviour of a real instrument... I really never considered it a problem

[BBFG#]

@BBFG fully agree, manufacturers seem so stuck to their personal trends and convinctions now to the point I always had to search for models of some years ago to find the features I need !!! And yeah I hate those joysticks, and the fact most manufacturers dropped now support for release velocity, which can really do wonders with expression with custom or 3rd party synths supporting it (like pianoteq just to mention one).

Back in topic, thanks for your suggestions. I will check for YT videos. However I don't think an editor could fix the issue since I tried all the curves by setting them by the panel and it really looks a hardware related threshold. Also the UF80 editor is for xp only and I fear it won't work anymore - but will try. Replacing the strip is a PITA, I remember for my old akai mx1000 I had to take all keys apart. I should measure with a tester to see if this can be offsetted electronically or not btw

Completely agree on the lack of release velocity. My old K4 got me hooked on needing it and it is sorely missing, when many of us feel it should be standard in all velocity keyboards.
I do love the joy stick though.
Especially Korg ones that pitch up/down and modulate to two separate sources depending on the direction you go from center.

Just to note, I was at my studio where I have a second VMK+ which is much newer than the one I use at home. The difference in feel of both velocity and aftertouch are very noticeable. I've had to replace some contacts on the older one, but now I'm thinking it might be better to replace them all...

[pdxindy]

Then evidently who designed them never actually played otherwise he would have easily realized that a so hard aftertouch is not acceptable

I also prefer a lighter aftertouch... it is easy enough to add a curve in software to make it less sensitive in cases where I might want that, but you cannot go the other way. If it takes a heavy force, that cannot be changed.

[elena2]

Update: luckily the aftertouch strips seemed ok, by measuring with a ohmmeter. It was the logic (or firmware ?) which started triggering the AT at a too low resistance threshold.
I checked the main board and there was one trimmer close to the AT wires connectors, so I hoped for an adjustment. Sadly it had no effect.

So I solved connecting a couple of 1K ohm trimmers in parallel with the two strips, to adjust the offset. Works great now.

I must say I pretty never seen a so nice mechanics work!!! A masterpiece of action engineering, all built in metal and with grease-free couplings. The whole keyboard build in a very sturdy way... compare the keybed with a Fatar... the latter looks (and feels) like a toy !!! No jokes. if that is China stuff lol it is high quality chinese manufacturing much better than some japanese counterparts ! I am very happy for my choice, it is just a pity that CME is not well known... to the point I didn't even consider and know it before, and I would have spared time and money with other master keyboards which eventually I had to return being unhappy with.

Anyway, there was an UF BRAIN program (despite still for win xp) which I would have liked to try also, just to check if it allowed a software adjustment, and also a firmware update available. Sadly CME removed all the downloads, and the former user who sold me the unit has not the files anymore. Where can get I those ???
I understand the model is 15 yrs old or so, but usually you can still find drivers and stuff of discontinued products online nowadays !!!

[Friendly Noise]

It’s amazing how different the implementation of aftertouch in keyboards can be. In the high-end Roland Fantom 8, you can simply forget that the keyboard does have aftertouch, unless you want your arms to be damaged in a single playing session.

On the other side, mono or poly aftertouch in the CME XKey is extremely light, leading to a completely different playing experience:

[chk071]

It’s amazing how different the implementation of aftertouch in keyboards can be.

Totally. I even noticed that on the two rather budget keyboards I owned.

Best to visit the store and see for yourself before buying, I guess.