KVR Audio

Mr D · Post by **Mr D** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:29 pm

Hi folks,

I own both Cableguys and Xfer LFO tool, and while they're both killer plugs, one thing i miss is the ability to trigger the envelopes via MIDI in a normal ADSR way.

So imagine i've got a filter in Cableguys ShaperBox.

I can set the attack and decay time no problem by just drawing them in the envelope, but i have no way to control the release time once i let go of the MIDI note.

So these envelopes act like one shots with optional looping.

Buy i'd like more control, even to the point of being able to choose where legato playing retriggers the envelope or not.

It's possible for example using Serum FX and then routing ENV1 to filter cut-off, but i was wondering if there are any other options (plugins) to achieve this that give me other effects and filters to play with?

Cheers!

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:59 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I thought Shaperbox has an option to trigger the envelope/LFO by incoming MIDI notes.

Page 6 in the manual: https://www.cableguys.com/downloads/Cab ... .pdf?v=3.2

Page 35 describes how you set up Shaperbox to get MIDI input.

MattLeschuck · Post by **MattLeschuck** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:55 pm

For this check out Kilohearts Snap heap (with all its Snap ins). As a midi effect you get more trigger control and access to LFOs and ADSR envelopes.

The very things you mention I’ve put in as a feature request for Shaperbox.

Mr D · Post by **Mr D** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:59 pm

chk071 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:59 pm Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I thought Shaperbox has an option to trigger the envelope/LFO by incoming MIDI notes.

Page 6 in the manual: https://www.cableguys.com/downloads/Cab ... .pdf?v=3.2

Page 35 describes how you set up Shaperbox to get MIDI input.

As far as i can tell, the envelope is just an audio envelope follower, you can't trigger it with MIDI.

But even if you could, that doesn't achieve what i'm trying to do, i want to use the envelope that you draw in the main window, but then be be able to control the release time when i let go of a key. And have control over legatto playing.

Mr D · Post by **Mr D** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:07 pm

MattLeschuck wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:55 pm For this check out Kilohearts Snap heap (with all its Snap ins). As a midi effect you get more trigger control and access to LFOs and ADSR envelopes.

The very things you mention I’ve put in as a feature request for Shaperbox.

Nice, will check that out!

Maybe you know the answer to this?:

I'm pretty new to ShaperBox, something else i'm really missing is a control to scale the effect down. For example, the Time module could be useful for adding very subtle pitch modulation to delays, but i can't manage to dial in a subtle effect with it. Is there some way to do that, like zooming into the envelope window or some hotkey to scale an envelope?

muki · Post by **muki** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:44 pm

devious machines duck
can be triggered with midi or sidechain (or itself)

https://deviousmachines.com/product/duck/

and iirc tal filter, which besides of filter does also pan and volume, might react to midi (note-on)

https://tal-software.com/products/tal-filter

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:53 pm

Mr D wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:59 pm
chk071 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:59 pm Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I thought Shaperbox has an option to trigger the envelope/LFO by incoming MIDI notes.

Page 6 in the manual: https://www.cableguys.com/downloads/Cab ... .pdf?v=3.2

Page 35 describes how you set up Shaperbox to get MIDI input.
As far as i can tell, the envelope is just an audio envelope follower, you can't trigger it with MIDI.

But even if you could, that doesn't achieve what i'm trying to do, i want to use the envelope that you draw in the main window, but then be be able to control the release time when i let go of a key. And have control over legatto playing.

I don't know about legato, but, to me it sounds like both Cableguys and TAL-Filter do what you're asking.

MattLeschuck · Post by **MattLeschuck** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:59 pm

Shaperbox does support midi trigger, but only monophonic (all voices follow one LFO). Snap Heap allows you do to both which i find very nice for big filter sweeps on chord progressions for example.

MR.D, one thing to remember is that your DAW has to be in playback mode in order to hear timeshapers "effect". Something i sometimes forget lol.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:10 pm

MattLeschuck wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:59 pm Shaperbox does support midi trigger, but only monophonic (all voices follow one LFO).

True, that's a limitation.

Mr D · Post by **Mr D** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:17 pm

I tried Snap Heap but it doesn't support tablets unfortunately (I'm a Wacom user).

To be honest i probably wouldn't use it anyway because the envelope window is so small and you can't add points to the envelope. It's just too basic for my needs!

MattLeschuck · Post by **MattLeschuck** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:12 am

Mr D wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:17 pm I tried Snap Heap but it doesn't support tablets unfortunately (I'm a Wacom user).

To be honest i probably wouldn't use it anyway because the envelope window is so small and you can't add points to the envelope. It's just too basic for my needs!

Ive never heard someone say Snap Heap (with access to all the snap-ins) is basic

. You can get incredibly deep in it. The Curve and LFO have breakout windows that allow you to draw in things similar to Shaperbox. You can expand those to any size you want. Being that you are on a tablet though and not a computer, I can see that being a constraint.

Hopefully Cableguys will add the support you mentioned earlier as id like that too

yellowmix · Post by **yellowmix** » Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:37 am

Snap Heap is indeed deep. Envelope triggering a filter is one of the more trivial examples. I've attached a Snap Heap preset with macros set to adjust a MIDI-controlled ADSR envelope controlling a filter. I also added an instance of Faturator with a drive macro which you can use, as well as a Convolver with a reverb IR, without licensing them.

I don't know what kind of Wacom tablet you have, but it should be able to interact with anything a mouse can. You may need to take it out of pen mode and put it into mouse mode.

If you have Serum, Zebra, Synthmaster, Synth Squad, and other synths with FX versions or audio input, then you generally have access to all their internal FX and envelopes and modulators. Some are a little complicated, like in FM8, you need to send "IN" to "Z" then Z to Out lanes to pass the audio input through the filter.

Depending on your DAW, you may have options to apply a MIDI-triggered modulation via MIDI CC to any FX's exposed parameters. If you use REAPER check out Zenvelope: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/22740/zenvelope.zip

Mr D · Post by **Mr D** » Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:28 am

Just a quick update in case anyone stumbles across this thread:

If you're looking for a MIDI triggerable envelope which also let's you stay at the sustain level when playing legato and also has release control (so, basically, normal synth envelope features), you can use Serum FX (Serum's version that let's you input external audio while retaining all the synth functions).

The trick is to turn on the noise OSC and set it to audio in. Then ENV1 will be your volume envelope.

As long as you keep all the FX turned off, it's just a volume envelope.

And if you want to use Serum's main filter on the external audio, that's also possible, just turn on the noise button in the filter section.

BassGuru@WDW · Post by **BassGuru@WDW** » Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:12 am

Mr D wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 10:28 am Just a quick update in case anyone stumbles across this thread:

If you're looking for a MIDI triggerable envelope which also let's you stay at the sustain level when playing legato and also has release control (so, basically, normal synth envelope features), you can use Serum FX (Serum's version that let's you input external audio while retaining all the synth functions).

The trick is to turn on the noise OSC and set it to audio in. Then ENV1 will be your volume envelope.

As long as you keep all the FX turned off, it's just a volume envelope.

And if you want to use Serum's main filter on the external audio, that's also possible, just turn on the noise button in the filter section.

OMG I've been searching for DAYS looking for a gate that does this! Right in my plugin folder all along!

A thousand times thank you!

Mr D · Post by **Mr D** » Sun Mar 03, 2024 12:37 pm

BassGuru@WDW wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:12 am

OMG I've been searching for DAYS looking for a gate that does this! Right in my plugin folder all along!

A thousand times thank you!

Nice!

Although these days i'd probably use a Melda plugin inside Patchwork and use it's (Melda's) modulation system to create a MIDI triggerable envelope which actually has way more features than Serum and much better (nicer to edit) envelopes. Any Melda audio effect would work, as long as it has a volume knob..... MUtility is the simplest.

You could also choose to use MCCGenerator, which has the advantage of allowing you to envelope any parameter in your target synth, not just volume. The CCs it outputs have very high resolution, not the crappy 7 bit of real MIDI.

Although the Melda envelopes are really fast, I don't think it would be the right choice for the fastest envelopes you might ever need (synthesizing a kick, snare or hi-hat for example), Serum's internal envelopes would have the edge in that regard because (i guess) they're pre-calculated.

Envelope plugins that gives you normal ADSR control?