Technicly all modern synthesizers are semi-modular/modular

[Lbdunequest]

Lets say Serum/Vital/Dune 3/Hive 2/Obsession/Rapid/Avenger/Spire/Sylenth1... you can modulate basicly antyhing with anything = modular.

[imrae]

"Modular" means "comprised of modules" not "has modulation sources and destinations".

A semimodular has default routing but you can override it to use modules differently. I'd look for options like using self-oscillating filters as oscillators/modulators, bypassing the volume envelope to create drones, using that VCA to shape modulation...

[Lbdunequest]

"Modular" means "comprised of modules" not "has modulation sources and destinations".

A semimodular has default routing but you can override it to use modules differently. I'd look for options like using self-oscillating filters as oscillators/modulators, bypassing the volume envelope to create drones, using that VCA to shape modulation...

Serum has also "fixed" routings but you can change them in Mod matrix

[foosnark]

On the synths you've named (not close to "all modern synthesizers") you certainly can't modulate anything with anything. The audio has a fixed path. You can modulate most parameters with LFOs or envelopes, but with restrictions.

On Serum for instance, you can't cross-FM. You can't patch an oscillator through a filter or effect and then use the result as a modulation source. You can't patch feedback. You can't even control the VCA with a knob or aftertouch, you're forced to use an envelope for it (my biggest frustration with many software synths).

And you can't cross-patch it with external sound sources. You can only modulate parameters from other plugins IF your DAW allows that kind of routing (making the DAW modular-like, not the synth).

Even Aalto, which looks like a semi-modular, has a fixed audio path. It'd be more accurate to say it has a patchable modulation system. And it's a limited one, because the modulation depth is a single parameter on inputs, so if you combine modulation sources you can't control their relative depths. But hey, at least the VCA/LPG isn't permanently glued to an envelope.

[Lbdunequest]

On the synths you've named (not close to "all modern synthesizers") you certainly can't modulate anything with anything. The audio has a fixed path. You can modulate most parameters with LFOs or envelopes, but with restrictions.

On Serum for instance, you can't cross-FM. You can't patch an oscillator through a filter or effect and then use the result as a modulation source. You can't patch feedback. You can't even control the VCA with a knob or aftertouch, you're forced to use an envelope for it (my biggest frustration with many software synths).

And you can't cross-patch it with external sound sources. You can only modulate parameters from other plugins IF your DAW allows that kind of routing (making the DAW modular-like, not the synth).

Even Aalto, which looks like a semi-modular, has a fixed audio path. It'd be more accurate to say it has a patchable modulation system. And it's a limited one, because the modulation depth is a single parameter on inputs, so if you combine modulation sources you can't control their relative depths. But hey, at least the VCA/LPG isn't permanently glued to an envelope.

Ok that actually explains alot thanks!

[PieBerger]

What foosnark said. Complex feedback paths are not possible with the synths you listed, thus you can't really modulate anything with anything. Even with a very modest Eurorack setup i.e. just a few modules, you can create sounds that are impossible to make with soft synths that are otherwise far more capable, because said software has a fixed audio path architecture.

[pdxindy]

I would consider Bazille to be an example of semi-modular.

[PieBerger]

Even in Phase Plant, which is more open and flexible than a lot of other synths, you can only create feedback loops within the generator section, whereas in the "proper" modular domain, hard or soft, you can patch up literally anything with anything else, e.g. VCOs modulating FX parameters modulating VCAs, all feeding back into each other and themselves. Granted the results can be messy, noisy and "unmusical" at the extremes, but we are only discussing possibilities/limitations not whether noisecore is enjoyable to listen to or not

[gentleclockdivider]

Lets say Serum/Vital/Dune 3/Hive 2/Obsession/Rapid/Avenger/Spire/Sylenth1... you can modulate basicly antyhing with anything = modular.

NO , a modular means there are separate modules and signals .
Audio signals are bipolar (ac) and control signals unipolar (dc) , both running at near light speed or in the digital domain at sample rate ( yes even the control signals )
So in a modular system you can easily patch an envelope straight to the audio output while being triggered by clock source , this would be the result.


Reason why I gave these examples is to show that the resolution or rather the update rate of control signals are the same as audio signals and therefore the modulation will be as accurate as possible .
Take reason for example, all it's cv signals are updated @ 1/64th of the actual sample rate , so that's 689 hz when SR. is 44Khz, which is enough for slow running lfo's but not for fast audio rate ones .
Now if a Sine lfo runs at 1000 KHZ it will exhibit aliasing and thus the sinewaveform will look jaggy , and this will be reflected in the modulation
YOu can't patch the output of an osc. to control the pulsewidth of a square wave , therefore it' not really a modular .
True digital modulars also let you create feedback loops with a 1unit sample delay .
Reaktor = true modular
VCV rack = true modular
Dune 3 , altough everything can be updated at sample rate , it won't allow 1 unit feedback loops therefore it's imho semimodular
PUre data = true modular ( 1 unit feedback loops are possible with block~ 1 in subpatcher)
MAx -msp true modular with gen~
Bitwig grid ,semimodular , won't allow 1 unit feedback loops
et..

[imrae]

I don't think "feedback loops" or "no distinction between audio and CV" are strict requirements for a modular synthesizer, but they are good examples of what a truly modular system might bring.

Audio and CV are largely kept separate in Buchla world, and nobody doubts the modular credentials of those systems. (It is one reason I would rather stick with Eurorack, though...)

I agree that hard-wired volume envelopes are an especially annoying feature of most non-modular synthesizers, from the perspective of a modular user.

[pdxindy]

Dune 3 , altough everything can be updated at sample rate , it won't allow 1 unit feedback loops therefore it's imho semimodular

I wouldn't call Dune semi-modular.

[gentleclockdivider]

Dune 3 , altough everything can be updated at sample rate , it won't allow 1 unit feedback loops therefore it's imho semimodular

I wouldn't call Dune semi-modular.

Dune 3 is great but it’s not a full modular simply because not everything is available as a modsource which is exactly what a modular system CAN do .

[imrae]

Not *everything* is necessarily available as a mod source in a full modular system. e.g. Plaits has an internal modulation envelope that cannot be exposed to the wider Eurorack system.

What makes it modular is that Plaits can be moved around in the signal path, skipped entirely, or replaced with another module.

[pekbro]

Likely all software synths at least are modular on a programming level, though they may not reflect that
at the UI level.

[databroth]

Likely all software synths at least are modular on a programming level, though they may not reflect that
at the UI level.

and all hardware synths are modular at the component level

I do think it's fair to consider modular as a full set of capabilities

I've actually been working on a write up to "define" different types of modular
as much as synths like vital and serum have extremely dense modular like capabilities, it just doesn't make sense to call them modular, as we all come to expect something specific when someone says "modular"

I would consider phaseplant modular, even though it doesn't support entirely complete routing, but because it has a vast amount of capabilities

stuff like the effects section in serum, I usually call pedal board style, as with a real pedal board, you'd only have the effects on hand, and could only change the order

reason is what I'd call "rack system" as "modules" are full independent effects and synths, and modulation between them is limited, think falcon or reason

module instancing is important in my definition of modular, which is another reason why phaseplant makes the bill, but perhaps we can call these "system modular" where there's a prescribed system, and 3rd party modules aren't welcome. also these auto route your signal path

full modular, or I usually call it "euro style" modular would let you route any input to any output. You can do feedback, you can send audio to modulate distortion amount, or send an lfo into a delay, skys the limit, this is what I'd call "full modular" and in general these allow for 3rd party modules as well, perhaps "open modular" if that's the case (think blocks, vcv, voltage modular)

then we get deeper into component level modulars, where it's basically just visual programming language; stuff like pure data, maxmsp, reaktor

obviously some stuff doesn't quite fit any of these categories exactly, and perhaps I'm narrowing things down too much, I'll have a full write up on this eventually, and in regards to other synthesis names
if you stretch definitions, a minimoog could be described as an analog subtractive additive fm wavetable hybrid synthesizer, and I think we can all agree that doesn't quite work