IK CSR - has anyone copied over the original Lexicon PCM90/91 presets?

[machinated]

So I was trying to hunt down what this was based on for a while, and found a few old forums posts here from about 10 years ago pointing towards a PCM90/91. Checking the Lexicon manual, it more than confirms it by the parameters matching the plugin.

The plugin has a pretty small amount of presets included, and given how the majority of people tended to use the devices presets and adjust a control or 2, it would be really cool if it was possible to approximate something close to the original ones.

I know its not the newest reverb, but the PCM90/91 should have some similarities to the 224XL and fills a nice gap.

OG Manual+preset list here: https://www.argekultur.at/downloads/f/g ... e_Rev1.pdf

[jamcat]

I started to try once. But I found it way too laborious because you can’t type the values into CSR settings, so I abandoned the project pretty quickly.

[jamcat]

...However, looking at the CSR presets, they are in plain XML and the values match what CSR displays in the settings in regular decimal, so it would be possible to create presets and then edit them by hand in TextEdit/Notepad for quickness and accuracy.

Then it's just a matter of getting a readout of the PCM91's preset settings, (I don't have access to one currently), and hoping they align with CSR (does 20% Modulation and 55% Diffusion mean the same in both?)

BTW, the first 6 presets from the PCM91 Program Bank P0: Halls are reproduced by Relab LX480, in the preset menu under: Modern > 1990s Hardware

I may try to match the LX480's PCM91 presets in CSR and see what happens, since I own both.

Martin Lind, who is behind Relab Development, also developed CSR for IK.
It should be noted that the PCM91 is actually going to have more similarities to the 480L than to the 224X.

[machinated]

...However, looking at the CSR presets, they are in plain XML and the values match what CSR displays in the settings in regular decimal, so it would be possible to create presets and then edit them by hand in TextEdit/Notepad for quickness and accuracy.

Then it's just a matter of getting a readout of the PCM91's preset settings, (I don't have access to one currently), and hoping they align with CSR (does 20% Modulation and 55% Diffusion mean the same in both?)

BTW, the first 6 presets from the PCM91 Program Bank P0: Halls are reproduced by Relab LX480, in the preset menu under: Modern > 1990s Hardware

I may try to match the LX480's PCM91 presets in CSR and see what happens, since I own both.

Martin Lind, who is behind Relab Development, also developed CSR for IK.
It should be noted that the PCM91 is actually going to have more similarities to the 480L than to the 224X.

I downloaded the Breverb 2 demo but haven’t looked at it yet. I’m hoping that it has the original presets and I can pull the data from those into CSR. Will check tomorrow… I believe that has the same parameters as the original too.

Would these PCM91 algos be in the 480L classic cart? IIRC, the 480L uses one of the new Hall algo’s to do it’s plates and chambers. PCM91 appears to contain:

Rich Plate (from the 224 series?)
Concert Hall (again 224?)
Room/Chamber (224?)
Ambience (480L?)
Inverse
Room2
Surround Chamber
Chamber
RHall (480L)

[machinated]

...However, looking at the CSR presets, they are in plain XML and the values match what CSR displays in the settings in regular decimal, so it would be possible to create presets and then edit them by hand in TextEdit/Notepad for quickness and accuracy.

Then it's just a matter of getting a readout of the PCM91's preset settings, (I don't have access to one currently), and hoping they align with CSR (does 20% Modulation and 55% Diffusion mean the same in both?)

BTW, the first 6 presets from the PCM91 Program Bank P0: Halls are reproduced by Relab LX480, in the preset menu under: Modern > 1990s Hardware

I may try to match the LX480's PCM91 presets in CSR and see what happens, since I own both.

Martin Lind, who is behind Relab Development, also developed CSR for IK.
It should be noted that the PCM91 is actually going to have more similarities to the 480L than to the 224X.

I downloaded the Breverb 2 demo but haven’t looked at it yet. I’m hoping that it has the original presets and I can pull the data from those into CSR. Will check tomorrow… I believe that has the same parameters as the original too.

Would these PCM91 algos be in the 480L classic cart? IIRC, the 480L uses one of the new newer algo’s to do it’s plates and chambers. PCM91 appears to contain:

Rich Plate (from the 224 series?)
Concert Hall (again 224?)
Room/Chamber (224?)
Ambience (480L?)
Inverse
Room2
Surround Chamber
Chamber
RHall (480L)

[jamcat]

I don't know the answer to that. I think Lexicon is known to use the same names for different (but similar) algorithms in different units. So my guess is they're probably similar but not identical in practice.

The 6 PCM91 presets in LX480 use the 480L Random Hall:

• Deep Blue
• Large Hall
• Medium Hall
• Small Hall
• L Hall+Stage
• M Hall+Stage

[machinated]

checked the breverb demo real quick but on first glance there wasn't much resembling the original PCM presets. Some of the parameters scale differently to CSR (for instance in Breverb size is a % rather than m). seems to have a lot of similar qualities to CSR though, definitely a little curious how close it stacks up to the real thing.

I only have UAD 480L and Relab LX480 Essentials so I miss out on some of those legacy modelled presets. IIRC, I do have some other plugins that have PCM91 inspired presets, but I have no way to vouch for their authenticity and the parameters won't match to the original anyway. Will keep digging, but I suspect it may be difficult to find the individual settings for each stock preset without access to a HW unit.

[jens]

(does 20% Modulation and 55% Diffusion mean the same in both?

If Martin's known diligence - to the point of obsession - is anything to go by, then yes.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

(does 20% Modulation and 55% Diffusion mean the same in both?

If Martin's known diligence - to the point of obsession - is anything to go by, then yes.

Not to knock Martin's work in any way, but I'm not sure if IK's CSR is as 1:1 as LX480 though. CSR came out in 2006 and I get the impression he got a lot better at what he does since then. CSR just never wows me and I generally like Lexi-style verbs.

[jens]

Yes, there's certainly improvement - not even sure that's really actually him btw. - he's not shy at all to admit that he uses a machine-learning tool he developed himself. And that certainly improves over time.

Having said that: a PCR91 is not universally known to wow people. It's neither a 224 nor a 480 -but it's a good tool that often does the job* - and the same imo goes for CSR.


*or that is my impression at least. I don't have any experience with any real Lexicon device. (But iIrc I have access to a 91 and could thus theoretically compare it to CSR.)

[machinated]

Would be cool to hear side by side with a real PCM91, especially bypassing the PCM91 converters which were presumably less of a focus to model in 2006.

Even for 2006, I can’t imagine the algorithms having to suffer too much to replicate a box from 10 years previous (that wasn’t their flagship) but I’m purely speculating. The 4 CSR algorithms seem to be based on older Lexicon ones rather than the later RHall/Ambience. The fact that Breverb sounds quite similar makes me think it shouldn’t be a million miles off the real deal.

Wasn’t Martin’s background with porting over Lexicon code?

The slight grainy/ugly sound is the appeal to me. I’ve found some useful sounds from CSR but the stock presets would make it WAY more useful to me. Quite funny that for all the hate CSR has got over the years, it seems that no one has compared side by side with a real PCM91 that’s dialled in the same….

[jens]

Maybe I'll really do it... not entirely sure I can be arsed, but then again that might prove to be interesting enough.

(I'm not 100% sure I have access to a PCM91 but I believe I do - I found some Lexicon stuff (PCM 81&91 if I am not mistaken) at work when cleaning up our storage room and looking for stuff to throw out. It turns out a colleague got it years from a deceased musician's wife who wanted to get rid of his stuff. Since then I asked him a couple of times to take it home but I think it's still there. And if not I could borrow it from him. No problem there - the question is just a) whether my memory serves me correctly in regards to the actual devices (it's two PCMs for sure) and b) whether I can fight off my own lazyness for long enough.)

[machinated]

Maybe I'll really do it... not entirely sure I can be arsed, but then again that might prove to be interesting enough.

(I'm not 100% sure I have access to a PCM91 but I believe I do - I found some Lexicon stuff (PCM 81&91 if I am not mistaken) at work when cleaning up our storage room and looking for stuff to throw out. It turns out a colleague got it years from a deceased musician's wife who wanted to get rid of his stuff. Since then I asked him a couple of times to take it home but I think it's still there. And if not I could borrow it from him. No problem there - the question is just a) whether my memory serves me correctly in regards to the actual devices (it's two PCMs for sure) and b) whether I can fight off my own lazyness for long enough.)

Is there any way of doing a sysex dump of the presets? maybe it’s possible to do make a script to convert them to CSR and save the boring part.

Or maybe it’s possible for someone to make a video going through the settings and users can manually make the presets (and share) as they see fit.

I think it would be a cool way of preserving the sound of these old units, assuming the emulations is close enough to the real deal.

[jens]

I have absolutely no idea at this point. They're in a case (together with some other stuff). I opened it for half a minute to look what's in there, then asked him if he knew anything about it. We subsequently spoke about maybe me borrowing them at some point just for the fun of it to compare them to plugins (which he was all game about) and so far never talked about it again (besides me asking him now and then to take them home).

[jamcat]

Maybe I'll really do it... not entirely sure I can be arsed, but then again that might prove to be interesting enough.

There are 450 presets in the PCM91.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a MIDI librarian that supports it.
MIDI Quest support the PCM90 but they list the PCM91 among the Midi Quest 12 Beta Instrument Modules, saying:

The following instrument modules have been developed to varying levels by Sound Quest over the last number of years. In most cases, Sound Quest has not been able to obtain access to the hardware for further development and testing. If you have MQ12 or MQ12 Pro, any of these instruments, and are interested in assisting with completing support, please contact us using the following email address with your name, serial number, and instruments: beta@squest.com. We look forward to hearing from you.

If we could get the PCM91 presets into a librarian, they could be distributed to a team to port them without needing actual units at their disposal.