Coding a better envelope for trance plucks, have I succeeded?

[Tj Shredder]

Bitwig has a dedicated pluck envelope btw… no sustain and different decay and release times…
And I still miss a APDSR envelope where the peak and sustain are controllable independently… Since keyboards have aftertouch this should be obvious…
I need to combine two envelopes to get this sort of control, which is only possible in a modular environment…

[Architeuthis]

explain how APDSR works, I've not heard of that.

[Tj Shredder]

Of course not. Because it doesn’t exist in any softsynth. You can achieve it with a DX7 envelope though.
It simply does not fix the peak on the maximum level, but let it be modulated by the velocity without affecting the sustain to be controlled solely with aftertouch.
With the classic ADSR it is not possible to have a soft start, and then let the sustain be louder than that and still have a release time.
It simply means you need to be able to sculpt attack, sustain and release phases of a sound independently…

[pdxindy]

Of course not. Because it doesn’t exist in any softsynth. You can achieve it with a DX7 envelope though.
It simply does not fix the peak on the maximum level, but let it be modulated by the velocity without affecting the sustain to be controlled solely with aftertouch.
With the classic ADSR it is not possible to have a soft start, and then let the sustain be louder than that and still have a release time.

You can do that with MSEG's

[Tj Shredder]

You can do that with MSEG's

Show me the MSEG that allows to modulate individual peak levels. The one in Bitwig doesn‘t. The 4 segment envelope of a DX7 does, and the one of a CZ synth as well. But thats it… Most MSEG envelopes have unlimited segments which makes modulation complicated at least…
I do it now in Bitwig with mixing two envelopes, an AR or pluck and an ASR. The modulation happens on the mixer then…

[Eirikur]

I mentioned physical models, earlier. It has also occurred to me that you could treat the interesting parts of the pluck as a convolution effect, convolving the oscillator signal with a presculpted envelope waveform. That sounds less tweakable, though.

[Architeuthis]

For an APDSR what would the shape look like when the attack peak is lower than the sustain?

edit: maybe it decays upward?

[backtomusic]

Of course not. Because it doesn’t exist in any softsynth. You can achieve it with a DX7 envelope though.
It simply does not fix the peak on the maximum level, but let it be modulated by the velocity without affecting the sustain to be controlled solely with aftertouch.
With the classic ADSR it is not possible to have a soft start, and then let the sustain be louder than that and still have a release time.
It simply means you need to be able to sculpt attack, sustain and release phases of a sound independently…

Sound like the digital era of Roland like jv-1080/2080 that has time and level for attack phase, then time and level for the decay phase, then another time to reach sustain at another level, and finally a release time, if its a filter envelope they add release level too.

JD-800 have the same (https://www.roland.com/global/products/rc_jd-800/)

Soo the Roland cloud soft synths envelopes maybe fits what your describing.

[Tj Shredder]

For an APDSR what would the shape look like when the attack peak is lower than the sustain?

edit: maybe it decays upward?

Yes, of course. It just moves to the new target in a specified time. Ideal would be an exponential move as that is how it works in nature… easily achievable in code… think low pass filter…

[bluesawsq]

There has been already many suggestions how to get those pluck sounds in existing synths.
Here is another one.
Try modulating decay time with another envelope. This gives more control on the plucky part and long decay part separately, and allows adjusting the transition from pluck to decay.
Works great in synths like Massive X, Serum, Dune 3, etc.
Something like this in Massive X:

Or this in Dune 3:

[Architeuthis]

this is how I got the idea for the pluck envelope

[pdxindy]

this is how I got the idea for the pluck envelope

And it is really tedious to use 2 envelopes like that cause they have to both be edited. When you tweak one, you have to tweak the other.

[Held]

MPowerSynth and MSoundFactory let you draw any attack/release shape you want.

msf_custom_attack_release_shape.png

[Architeuthis]

looks nice, i might download it and give that a test

this is how I got the idea for the pluck envelope

And it is really tedious to use 2 envelopes like that cause they have to both be edited. When you tweak one, you have to tweak the other.

well I'd be interested to know if my pluck envelope with 3 decay controls is more convenient. It has a few more controls than an ADSR, but you should be able to find a setup where you only need to adjust 1 or 2 controls to go from short to long plucks

[Ah_Dziz]

There are lots of fun ways to fiddle with "realistic" envelope characteristics. One good one is tracking the level of an excited feedback loop (delay line/ comb filter) and using the envelope of that as a cv. It's also fun to extract the envelopes from various recordings of natural sounds. I have no problem putting this sort of thing together for the sounds I want. This kind of farting around is why I'm into electronic music. That being said, adsr envelopes that are coded well do fine for tons of sound including plucks. Having to click a few extra time to get a specific curvature isn't much of a hassle compared to many other parts of the production process.

I'm always interested in a new way of doing things though. I'd love to see your filters slapped together with your envelope.