Kick drum keeps overpowering every mix

[Hedge12]

Hello all,

I find myself struggling with kick drums for a while now (genre: melodic- house & techno), more precisely finding the right spot in the mix. I apply the most common methods in order to balance the kick:

- Use decent samples (from PML)

- Make sure the kick is in mono, and in key

- Shorten the kick if needed

- Mix the kick at -12db, so there is plenty of headroom for mixing

- Side-chain elements to the kick (bass, keys, etc.)

- EQ if needed, taking out some of those powerful low-ends and click(s)

- EQ other elements - taking out lower end of elements

- Preform an early mix with the basic elements (kick, bass, hook, pads, etc.) in mono, so the stereo field doesn't distract me

- Put my monitors loud enough so I can clearly hear the changes

Still, at the end the kick is always way to loud compared to the rest.

When I mix at a lower volume (i.e., turning down my monitors) it seems that the kick sounds more in balance with the rest of the mix, but once I start upping the volume, the mix turns to mud again. Also, I mostly use Ableton's Simpler for kicks, but it seems that it always sounds louder compared to loading the kick sample directly into an audio track. Could the midi velocity play part in this?

I watched various YouTube videos and read countless blog posts about mixing kick drums, but I can't get it right.. When I watch videos on YouTube, those which show the creation of a full song, those producers just place a kick in their track, adjust the volume, and maybe add a bit of processing, and 'boom' it fits perfectly...

My assumption is that the kick samples I use are both too long and strong, but I could be wrong. if someone could give me some guidance or direction, feel free to reply!

Thank you in advance!

[imrae]

Reference tracks?

If you want to match the genre conventions for mix balancing, compare to level-matched tracks that you think get it right.

[Hedge12]

I didn't try a reference track before, but I'll definitely try this today!

Also, I see you have been at this sub for 10+ years. Do you have any insights regarding the ideal length for a kick and if my methods (listed in the original post) are of good use - or do I miss something essential?

Thank you for your response and advice!

[lfm]

Seems you use long ringing sounding kicks since you need to tune it!
- kick is a note rather than percussive
- then treat it as an instrument played as melody, where notes are just as long as needed

Not my genre though, more rock and pop kind of where kicks always are percussive.

What I heard was mostly hip-hop that use ringing kicks and real slow tempo.

[Hedge12]

Thank you for the advice!

So, if you would treat the kick as a melody rather than a percussive, it could work using 1/8 notes instead of the standard 1/4? Second, with shortening the notes, I trim the tail of the kick, right?

[lfm]

How long should a C-note be in a melody?
- it could be anything from several measures, half note, quarter or anything
- it's called frasing the notes

You look at music as a mechanical process with numbers.

The little I heard of dance music is that it pretty much is a kick as a metronome setting the pulse.
- so what pulse are you setting?
- and one pulse usually end before the next one starts
- often no complicated patterns for the kick
- hihat is another matter

Look at music as transfer of a feel, maybe?
- a groove

it sounds like you are programming everything.
Try to use a midi keyboard and just go by feel when and where a kick fits as a precussive event, not a note with a length. A metronome will give you the guide and see where a kick fits.

You will make lots of mistakes, but next round in loop it overwrites and try again.

Just record in a loop and experiment. This is the fun part to discover as you find things that work.

Make a loop of 8 bars and have it record in a loop, it will overwrite itself every loop.
Soon you start doing hihat on F# key and kick as C key with other hand.
- ahh, there was something interesting
- stop record and just listen to the loop

Soon you will have such adventures in your head and start programming them even.

As I see it tuning a kick and a ringing tone just complicates things. I would go for percussive as you find your way.

[dayjob]

Still, at the end the kick is always way to loud compared to the rest.

Just turn the kick down some. Lower the volume. You’re allowed to do this.

[vurt]

Still, at the end the kick is always way to loud compared to the rest.

Just turn the kick down some. Lower the volume. You’re allowed to do this.

yup.
in fact, take the fader all the way down.
set track playing, then slowly bring it up, till it sounds right.

[Hedge12]

Still, at the end the kick is always way to loud compared to the rest.

Just turn the kick down some. Lower the volume. You’re allowed to do this.

First, thank your for your response and insights!
But if I turn down the kick (below -12db) I probably won't be the loudest or centre anymore - or that's how I perceive it in my head.

Online you always hear people advocate that the kick should be the centre and loudest element in the mix. Yet, if I listen to professional tracks (i.e. Ben Böhmer, Lane 8, Steve Bug, etc.) the kick is always present, but yet not overpowering, leaving room for the bass and lead. It feels like in their tracks the kick isn't the loudest part of the track, so this gets me confused regarding how to balance the kick in the overall mix.

Do you have any thought on that?
Thank you!

[Hedge12]

Still, at the end the kick is always way to loud compared to the rest.

Just turn the kick down some. Lower the volume. You’re allowed to do this.

yup.
in fact, take the fader all the way down.
set track playing, then slowly bring it up, till it sounds right.

It just replied to Dayjob's comment regarding lowering the volume of the kick drum.

Do you just lower the volume of kick if needed - and if so, is the kick still the centre of your mix?

[vurt]

don't mix by numbers.
they're a guide, but your ears are the more reliable tool.

[Hedge12]

How long should a C-note be in a melody?
- it could be anything from several measures, half note, quarter or anything
- it's called frasing the notes

You look at music as a mechanical process with numbers.

The little I heard of dance music is that it pretty much is a kick as a metronome setting the pulse.
- so what pulse are you setting?
- and one pulse usually end before the next one starts
- often no complicated patterns for the kick
- hihat is another matter

Look at music as transfer of a feel, maybe?
- a groove

it sounds like you are programming everything.
Try to use a midi keyboard and just go by feel when and where a kick fits as a precussive event, not a note with a length. A metronome will give you the guide and see where a kick fits.

You will make lots of mistakes, but next round in loop it overwrites and try again.

Just record in a loop and experiment. This is the fun part to discover as you find things that work.

Make a loop of 8 bars and have it record in a loop, it will overwrite itself every loop.
Soon you start doing hihat on F# key and kick as C key with other hand.
- ahh, there was something interesting
- stop record and just listen to the loop

Soon you will have such adventures in your head and start programming them even.

As I see it tuning a kick and a ringing tone just complicates things. I would go for percussive as you find your way.

Thank you for your insights!

Indeed, I approach tracks from a programming perspective because I lack the musical background.
Sadly, I don't own a midi-keyboard at the moment, but I'll give it a shot in the future!

So, you wouldn't tune a kick, which means you would rather search for a kick that out-of-the-box fits the track?

[Hedge12]

don't mix by numbers.
they're a guide, but your ears are the more reliable tool.

I heard that line before, thank you!
Yet, I try to use both, following my ears and the numbers.

I keep on struggling with the whole:
- 'set you kick at -x db'
- 'the kick should always be the loudest and centre of the mix'

Still, when I listen to professional tracks, the kick is present, but not necessarily the centre.
Mostly the bass or lead take the main stage.

So, this still confuses me, even when I use a reference track, it's hard to mimic their decisions.

[LeisureClassAudio]

Hey! I'd love to help you out. I adore Lane 8 and so know generally what you're after. It's tough to say without hearing your stuff exactly. I DO think that you're worrying too much about the rules and what you've read in various forums and tips and tricks articles.

Sample selection is HUGE here. I think the most important pieces to consider are:

• Monitoring
  Referencing
  Sample Selection

Is your monitoring good? You want to make sure that what you're hearing is true - or as true as it can get within your budget and environment. The best way to do that is by referencing a track you know well and love in your mixing environment. Does it sound muddy as well? Or is it well balanced?

If it is well balanced and something you are trying to achieve. Find a kick sample that gets as close to your end goal as possible. Once you've done that, LEAVE IT ALONE. That's your anchor, that's your center. Anything that compromises it should be mixed around it. Basses sidechained, EQs worked, etc.

Send me a DM and a reference track and I'll make you a few kicks. I've been where you are and it's not fun.

[Hedge12]

Hey! I'd love to help you out. I adore Lane 8 and so know generally what you're after. It's tough to say without hearing your stuff exactly. I DO think that you're worrying too much about the rules and what you've read in various forums and tips and tricks articles.

Sample selection is HUGE here. I think the most important pieces to consider are:

• Monitoring
  Referencing
  Sample Selection

Is your monitoring good? You want to make sure that what you're hearing is true - or as true as it can get within your budget and environment. The best way to do that is by referencing a track you know well and love in your mixing environment. Does it sound muddy as well? Or is it well balanced?

If it is well balanced and something you are trying to achieve. Find a kick sample that gets as close to your end goal as possible. Once you've done that, LEAVE IT ALONE. That's your anchor, that's your center. Anything that compromises it should be mixed around it. Basses sidechained, EQs worked, etc.

Send me a DM and a reference track and I'll make you a few kicks. I've been where you are and it's not fun.

First, thank your for your reply and time!

I'll send you a DM right away, but first I'll try to answer your questions.

Sample selection: I currently use two PML packs that fit the genre I like, so I assume I'm covered there? Even tough, the kick's are rather long and needed to be the shortened and EQed because sound very powerful.

Monitoring: I have a pair of Yamaha's DS105 (+10 years old, but almost never used). Yet, I don't have an audio interface at the moment. So, I use a two-way (L/R) XLR to mini-jack cable (mini jack goes into my Macbook). This isn't ideal, but the only option at the moment. Could this be my problem why my mix seems to sound okeyish on a lower volume, but rather bad once I increase the volume? I used a reference track today (Ben Böhmer) and it sounded good to me, so that's that.

Thank you in advance!