Major UJAM flaw for VICE drums

[paramita123]

I'm sure everyone here is VERY familiar with velocity.
Well it seems UJAM isn't ... So I'm posting to warn possible buyers, and see if anyone has a fix.

When we program drums we expect a kick with say 100 to 128 velocity to be thumpy and loud. When it goes down to say 20, it should be not thumpy and it should be quieter.
Here is the issue, at low velocity, even JUST 1, kicks in VICE are just as thumpy as at 100, the only difference seems to be some form of low pass so it's not as bright.
Same issue with other sounds but most prominent with kicks. Sound example below pic.

VICE-velocity-issue.png

sound :
https://whyp.it/tracks/128087/vice-velo ... oken=Hkyv0

This issue makes VICE unusable for my production work as I illustrated with the very simple beat on the second sound. The low (blue) kick with a velocity of 1 is just way too thumpy, at 1 !!

VICE-velocity-issue2.png

https://whyp.it/tracks/128088/vice-velo ... oken=zWDij

I emailed them several times, they are nice and polite but they essentially say that is how their plugin is built... They also suggested that I make use of the volume control on the plugin to fix the issue .. (felt super patronising as I've used VSTs for over twenty years) and which would be very cumbersome and would not fix the problem as it would just be a quieter thump as opposed to the expected low velocity layer hit.

So I will not buy any more Ujam products for now.
I bought VICE as it seemed fun, but I will sadly have to dump it unless there is a fix.

[Cyforce]

To quitely understand it right...

- You personally don`t like the behavior of the plugin within specific midi velocity ranges
- UJAM support gives you polite replies with insight into how the plugin is built/concepted, and gives you tips like adjusting volume (= the obvious tool for too-intensive velocity differences...)
- you don`t use the tips or different velocity values

= so now you "WARNING" people to buy the plugin?
wow...

Sorry, I don`t get it. Simple issue/minor/personal usage-based issue and you publicly warn/carping a company. Just wow...

When we program drums we expect a kick with say 100 to 128 velocity to be thumpy and loud. When it goes down to say 20, it should be not thumpy and it should be quieter.

Just use different velocity levels if 20 is too thumpy, what the hell? ...

[DNnX]

Obviously, velocity is assigned to filter cutoff freq, not level. So it's their design like UJAM support said.
If you are using VST more than 20 years, you should carefully check these specification.
They provide 30 days trial before purchasing

[BONES]

I use BM-Vice all the time, it sounds f**king great. What's weird, though, is to expect behaviour in a synth emulating classic drum machines from the 80s that the originals lacked.

[BKSchatzki]

I love Vice. It's their strongest Beatmaker to this day, afaic. I noticed what you mentioned on day 1 of using them, but I actually liked this handling of it. It's a drum machine, and having one sample for the whole range that you manipulate actually seems to fit what I would expect. Sorry that it isn't what you wanted, though.

Can you also share your experience with the Virtual Drummers if you have them? This would definitely be something unexpected if a VD product didn't do velocity sampling or affect volume based on whether something is at the top or bottom of a specific velocity range.

EDIT: I don't want to come down on ya, btw. I hope that you find the solution that you're looking for.

[paramita123]

I love Vice. It's their strongest Beatmaker to this day, afaic. I noticed what you mentioned on day 1 of using them, but I actually liked this handling of it. It's a drum machine, and having one sample for the whole range that you manipulate actually seems to fit what I would expect. Sorry that it isn't what you wanted, though.

Can you also share your experience with the Virtual Drummers if you have them? This would definitely be something unexpected if a VD product didn't do velocity sampling or affect volume based on whether something is at the top or bottom of a specific velocity range.

EDIT: I don't want to come down on ya, btw. I hope that you find the solution that you're looking for.

Thanks for your kind message. Others were a bit harsh haha but I don't mind, online stuff ain't personal.
This plugin behaviour is ok for 4 to the floor programming, easy, but fails for pop triphop and other genres requiring some soft hits. Also I just tried this same pattern with the FREE DR 84 plugin and it works well as expected..
I haven't tried the virtual drummer, might give it a go as this would indeed be a problem.
I do like VICE otherwise but this issue is too big for my production needs, I guess I should be careful with my impulse purchases !
Best of luck to you

[paramita123]

To quitely understand it right...

- You personally don`t like the behavior of the plugin within specific midi velocity ranges
- UJAM support gives you polite replies with insight into how the plugin is built/concepted, and gives you tips like adjusting volume (= the obvious tool for too-intensive velocity differences...)
- you don`t use the tips or different velocity values

= so now you "WARNING" people to buy the plugin?
wow...

Sorry, I don`t get it. Simple issue/minor/personal usage-based issue and you publicly warn/carping a company. Just wow...

When we program drums we expect a kick with say 100 to 128 velocity to be thumpy and loud. When it goes down to say 20, it should be not thumpy and it should be quieter.

Just use different velocity levels if 20 is too thumpy, what the hell? ...

Hi, thanks for your not so kind comment, but anyway, you might have misunderstood me.
The behaviour is not what I think normal and as a paying customer it is my right to notify the company as if enough people do products can get better. Of course as long as it is a valid request.
For your reference I tried the same thing with the free DR84 drum machine and didn't have this problem. I sincerely believe there is a flaw in UJam VICE.
And I am not there to tank the company my friend. I do like them, constructive critics are here to help the company improve their offer I hope you will agree.
Have a good day.

[paramita123]

I use BM-Vice all the time, it sounds f**king great. What's weird, though, is to expect behaviour in a synth emulating classic drum machines from the 80s that the originals lacked.

Thanks Bones, may I then ask, do you then not use any low velocity hits? Or the thump or strength of those do not affect your production work?
I tried with the FREE DR84 drum machine and it does not show the same velocity issue, it works just as predicted. I therefore don't think it is just a VICE emulating old drum machines issues. But maybe it is by design, but if the free DR84 can do it right then I guess I'm not that foolish to raise the question with UJam. Now some people disagree, and I'm not here for feuds, just to discuss music prod. I do like UJam overall.
Would like to hear your reply on the VICE velocity question if you have time. Thanks !

[paramita123]

Obviously, velocity is assigned to filter cutoff freq, not level. So it's their design like UJAM support said.
If you are using VST more than 20 years, you should carefully check these specification.
They provide 30 days trial before purchasing

You got me ! Impulse buy yes I think it's a filter cutoff assignement. Weirdly the free DR84 drum machine doesn't have this problem and works as expected, I think I'm just going to switch as this issue is just too annoying, making the beats hard to mix.
Have a nice day.

[Daru925]

Seems like its only just one layer?
Certain libraries arent designed with multi layers in mind, which is fine.
And to be fair using cutoff will still bring sonic variation.
If i demo then buy something called super atomic hollywood braams im not expecting subtlety, and the usecase is very clear.
Its for writing goodnight songs to hellspawns

So use a dedicated plugin and track for that specific kick issue, if you like the rest of the kit maybe?

[paramita123]

So use a dedicated plugin and track for that specific kick issue, if you like the rest of the kit maybe?

Yes just one layer it seems. As you say I think layering with different plugins and or samples.
For drums I also use SSD5, TD Powerdrums and DR84, all free and pretty decent when adding FX processing through multiple outputs.
VICE ain't bad for the price. But I feel it is designed for being limited so users in search for more buy more UJAM plugins. I guess I should look into using battery where I can have more flexibility. I produce pop rock triphop style music so mixing analog and digital sounds is important for me.

[Daru925]

I guess I should look into using battery where I can have more flexibility. I produce pop rock triphop style music so mixing analog and digital sounds is important for me.

I enjoy drumlab because its versatile enough for me (some hybrid kits), but it has a major "flaw/behaviour/bug", that the kick velocity is sometimes applied to other instruments if they play at the same time as the kick.
So i tend to use kick separately instead.
Is it a bug, intended behaviour, me not using the plugin the intended way?... no idea, but id rather find a workaround than ditch the whole thing, since i like its sounds.
Cheers.

[BONES]

Thanks Bones, may I then ask, do you then not use any low velocity hits? Or the thump or strength of those do not affect your production work?

No, it's not something I've come up against. I can get enough to put a bit of human feel into hi-hats, albeit at much higher settings than you'd expect, but that's all I'm really looking for and it works well enough. The biggest hassle I have with Ujam drums, and I own 12 of them, is that the same lack of range with velocity also applies to volume. The difference between a volume of 10 and 12 is about the same as between 12 and 100. It's ridiculous but I manage.

The thing is, though, that Ujam make lots of different drums instruments, and VICE is very specifically modelled after several popular drum machi8nes from the 80s, so it doesn't surprise me at all that it's very basic when it comes to velocity response, as most of those machines were. If you were lucky you might have got soft, medium and loud volume options but velocity response wouldn't have been on the cards. That's not to say the other Ujam drums are necessarily any better, they're not, it just seemed strange to me that of all of them, you picked that one.

[paramita123]

I guess I should look into using battery where I can have more flexibility. I produce pop rock triphop style music so mixing analog and digital sounds is important for me.

I enjoy drumlab because its versatile enough for me (some hybrid kits), but it has a major "flaw/behaviour/bug", that the kick velocity is sometimes applied to other instruments if they play at the same time as the kick.
So i tend to use kick separately instead.
Is it a bug, intended behaviour, me not using the plugin the intended way?... no idea, but id rather find a workaround than ditch the whole thing, since i like its sounds.
Cheers.

Maybe try adding a little swing, either manually moving notes a fragment, or the plugin if there is that feature.
I didn't know about Drumlab, admittedly I am not a big fan of NI products, but I do want Kontakt as there are many cool free third party libraries for it. One day ..!
I am listening to the Drumlab demo on the NI site, sounds pretty good, thanks for the tip.

[paramita123]

Thanks Bones, may I then ask, do you then not use any low velocity hits? Or the thump or strength of those do not affect your production work?

No, it's not something I've come up against. I can get enough to put a bit of human feel into hi-hats, albeit at much higher settings than you'd expect, but that's all I'm really looking for and it works well enough. The biggest hassle I have with Ujam drums, and I own 12 of them, is that the same lack of range with velocity also applies to volume. The difference between a volume of 10 and 12 is about the same as between 12 and 100. It's ridiculous but I manage.

The thing is, though, that Ujam make lots of different drums instruments, and VICE is very specifically modelled after several popular drum machi8nes from the 80s, so it doesn't surprise me at all that it's very basic when it comes to velocity response, as most of those machines were. If you were lucky you might have got soft, medium and loud volume options but velocity response wouldn't have been on the cards. That's not to say the other Ujam drums are necessarily any better, they're not, it just seemed strange to me that of all of them, you picked that one.

Thanks for the feedback, glad you manage, yeah I can imagine the volume issue, tricky to produce more subtle parts. I get what you say about the early digital gear, hence why the music was what it was then... I picked VICE because I want to infuse my pop rock songs with some of that synthwave vibe...
I guess my best pick is to use multiple drum machines at once... Then all individual outs for more precise processing, but that also negates the UJAM mastering features ..
Anyway I am impressed you bought so many of their plugins ...! You must have quite the collection