I see that the LinnStrument sends out a PB value of 0 immediately preceding any Note On, even when X Quantize (all flavors) is off. This is thwarting my efforts to get more natural/imperfect tuning when using the LinnStrument.
Here's my use case:
I set up my synth/patch with PB range of 2 semitones. Then I setup the LinnStrument for 12-24 semis, quantize off. In this way I seek very slight pitch variation, with the ability to control it by playing at different points within the pad. (Note I am unconcerned with slides when using it like this.) This basically works, but because of the initial PB 0, with certain synths and patches the notes can audibly "yip" to the imperfect pitch rather than start right on it, as the first (correctly relative) PB value might follow the note on by 10s of msecs.
Note that this initial 0 also causes problems for absolute position "violin-like" playing/tuning where the patch's PB and LinnStrument PB are co-aligned - note ons near the pad borders yip.
I desire a mode where the PB value preceding the Note On reflect the initial position relative to pad center, not 0. That certainly seems a more correct interpretation of "quantize off".
Is that currently possible? Have I missed a setting?
Thanks,
Rich
Note On Pitch "yip" with quantize off
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
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FranklyFlawless FranklyFlawless https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=586325 - KVRian
- 782 posts since 24 Oct, 2022 from Abbotsford, British Columbia
There is a hidden setting called Reset On Release:
That should at least deal with the "yip" you have been experiencing.Hidden setting: Reset On Release
Press the 5th pad from the top to turn on Reset On Release, which sends a Pitch Bend value of zero when a note is released. Normally this should be off to prevent pitch change upon release for sounds with long releases. However for sounds with fast releases, if you're hearing an occasional fast pitch sweep at the beginning of notes, it's because a previous note's bend value is remembered by the synth and is quickly being zeroed at the start of the new note. Turning this on will correct that.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
Thanks. I know about reset on release and it has nothing to do with this problem. Even on the very first note you play you'll get this, because it is about:
a) You play a note, not on center
b) PB 0 is sent
c) Note On is sent
d) the synth starts playing the note in perfect tune
e) a PB message corresponding to where you actually played is sent
f) the synth bends/yips to that pitch (the one you intended in the first place)
a) You play a note, not on center
b) PB 0 is sent
c) Note On is sent
d) the synth starts playing the note in perfect tune
e) a PB message corresponding to where you actually played is sent
f) the synth bends/yips to that pitch (the one you intended in the first place)
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
A simple way to perceive this issue (since a single yip over 10-20 msecs might be too subtle) is as follows:
a) set synth PB range and LinnStrument PB range to 2
b) turn pitch X on, but all quantize off on LS
c) turn the release on the sound all the way down so it immediately cuts off between notes
d) tap notes while gradually moving right or left
As you get towards the edge of a cell you will be increasingly yipping say 'up' to the note, yet immediately after moving into the next cell you will be maximally yipping 'down', until you reach the center of the next cell, etc.
Continue tapping on the border between two cells such that sometimes it registers as the right note and sometimes the left. You will be playing the same pitch, but sometimes yipping up to it, sometimes down.
The difference between yipping up vs down will be perceptible to most musicians even if a single yip isn't. It can be jarring, compared to say a Continuum which always sends a note + pb combo equating to the absolute position.
I don't see any reason why a LinnStrument couldn't also do this seamlessly.
a) set synth PB range and LinnStrument PB range to 2
b) turn pitch X on, but all quantize off on LS
c) turn the release on the sound all the way down so it immediately cuts off between notes
d) tap notes while gradually moving right or left
As you get towards the edge of a cell you will be increasingly yipping say 'up' to the note, yet immediately after moving into the next cell you will be maximally yipping 'down', until you reach the center of the next cell, etc.
Continue tapping on the border between two cells such that sometimes it registers as the right note and sometimes the left. You will be playing the same pitch, but sometimes yipping up to it, sometimes down.
The difference between yipping up vs down will be perceptible to most musicians even if a single yip isn't. It can be jarring, compared to say a Continuum which always sends a note + pb combo equating to the absolute position.
I don't see any reason why a LinnStrument couldn't also do this seamlessly.
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FranklyFlawless FranklyFlawless https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=586325
- KVRian
- 782 posts since 24 Oct, 2022 from Abbotsford, British Columbia
Okay, it sounds like firmware modification is required. I do not have the time to parse the code myself, so I will ask Kite about this issue.
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- KVRAF
- 1558 posts since 2 Apr, 2015
I just tested this and I get 0ms from note on to correct pitchbend via usb.
Is this a midi din issue, your 10-20 ms seems extreme?
Is this a midi din issue, your 10-20 ms seems extreme?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Bitwig, against the constitution.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
.741 to .751 is 10 msecs
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
Yes, a slower attack will mask the effect, but I don't think changing the sound is the right answer here.
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- KVRian
- 629 posts since 12 Sep, 2007
You might want to set your Linnstrument to 48 for pitch, and then something closer to an octave on the hard/soft instrument. The range of 2 semitones simply isn't enough. Lots of instruments only support up to 12 max.
Good luck.
Good luck.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
That's orthogonal to the problem. Whatever kinds of PB ratios/ranges one desires (and there are musical reasons for any of them, not relevant here), sending a leading PB of 0 is antithetical to "unquantized".Dirk Diggler wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:05 pm You might want to set your Linnstrument to 48 for pitch, and then something closer to an octave on the hard/soft instrument. The range of 2 semitones simply isn't enough. Lots of instruments only support up to 12 max.
Good luck.
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shutterdownmax shutterdownmax https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=370803
- KVRist
- 59 posts since 6 Dec, 2015
The pitch bend has to start somewhere. 0 is the logical place. Your other option would be wherever the last note on that channel left off.
I play unquantized almost exclusively and I don't have this trouble. Have you tried this on another synth? Different synthesizers will smooth input signals in different ways and that could lead to a yip.
I play unquantized almost exclusively and I don't have this trouble. Have you tried this on another synth? Different synthesizers will smooth input signals in different ways and that could lead to a yip.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 36 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
0 is not the logical place unless you are quantizing the pitch. The LinnStrument detects when and where a finger contacts the surface. At that point (before it sends NoteOn) it knows where within the cell the finger is. The correct unquantized PB value is that position relative to the center of the cell, and that is in fact the first PB value sent after the note on. But by sending PB 0 before the note on it causes all notes to start perfectly in tune and then bend to the finger location, instead of starting at the pitch indicated by the finger location and not bending unless the finger moves some more.
That's the way violins, fretless basses etc work. They don't initiate the notes in perfect tune, they initiate the notes wherever your finger actually is.
I appreciate that all suggestions here re: instruments and sounds are well meaning but I do know what I'm doing, what I want, and what's wrong. I have multiple LinnStruments, Continuums, Osmose, a full suite of physical models and hardware synths etc. It's not possible to work around this problem in a general way for all sound sources.
Here's the output from a Continuum for comparison. It too sends an immediately preceding PB, but it's correctly (i.e. relatively) tuned:
and the LinnStrument (all quantize off):
That's the way violins, fretless basses etc work. They don't initiate the notes in perfect tune, they initiate the notes wherever your finger actually is.
I appreciate that all suggestions here re: instruments and sounds are well meaning but I do know what I'm doing, what I want, and what's wrong. I have multiple LinnStruments, Continuums, Osmose, a full suite of physical models and hardware synths etc. It's not possible to work around this problem in a general way for all sound sources.
Here's the output from a Continuum for comparison. It too sends an immediately preceding PB, but it's correctly (i.e. relatively) tuned:
Code: Select all
07:40:24.291 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -199
07:40:24.292 From Continuum 460082 Note On 2 G4 4
07:40:24.301 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -185
07:40:24.303 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -176
07:40:24.304 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -161
07:40:24.306 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -150
07:40:24.308 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -122
07:40:24.310 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -110
07:40:24.314 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -94
07:40:24.318 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -76
07:40:24.320 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -60
07:40:24.323 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -53
07:40:24.369 From Continuum 460082 Note Off 2 G4 0
07:40:25.488 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -229
07:40:25.489 From Continuum 460082 Note On 2 F♯4 1
07:40:25.493 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -211
07:40:25.496 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -192
07:40:25.498 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -185
07:40:25.501 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -176
07:40:25.502 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -169
07:40:25.503 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -161
07:40:25.520 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -153
07:40:25.521 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -146
07:40:25.522 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -139
07:40:25.523 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 -132
07:40:25.551 From Continuum 460082 Note Off 2 F♯4 0
07:44:41.228 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 233
07:44:41.229 From Continuum 460082 Note On 2 F4 1
07:44:41.232 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 240
07:44:41.239 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 212
07:44:41.240 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 198
07:44:41.241 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 213
07:44:41.256 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 221
07:44:41.259 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 229
07:44:41.260 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 237
07:44:41.264 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 244
07:44:41.272 From Continuum 460082 Pitch Wheel 2 251
07:44:41.322 From Continuum 460082 Note Off 2 F4 0
Code: Select all
07:47:13.083 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 0
07:47:13.084 From LinnStrument MIDI Note On 1 B3 97
07:47:13.095 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -176
07:47:13.107 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -188
07:47:13.125 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -192
07:47:13.143 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -196
07:47:13.173 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -204
07:47:13.191 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -208
07:47:13.214 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -212
07:47:13.226 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -220
07:47:13.255 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -224
07:47:13.297 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -220
07:47:13.344 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -212
07:47:13.356 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -220
07:47:13.368 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -212
07:47:13.380 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -208
07:47:13.392 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -220
07:47:13.411 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -212
07:47:13.429 From LinnStrument MIDI Note Off 1 B3 27
07:47:14.889 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 0
07:47:14.890 From LinnStrument MIDI Note On 1 E4 63
07:47:14.902 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -132
07:47:14.914 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -120
07:47:14.926 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -132
07:47:14.938 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -136
07:47:15.009 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -132
07:47:15.033 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -128
07:47:15.080 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -132
07:47:15.092 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -144
07:47:15.104 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -148
07:47:15.116 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -156
07:47:15.129 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -164
07:47:15.141 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -172
07:47:15.153 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -180
07:47:15.165 From LinnStrument MIDI Note Off 1 E4 30
07:47:18.050 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 0
07:47:18.051 From LinnStrument MIDI Note On 1 D♯3 48
07:47:18.063 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -8
07:47:18.075 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -16
07:47:18.087 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -36
07:47:18.099 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -52
07:47:18.111 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -56
07:47:18.134 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -52
07:47:18.146 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -48
07:47:18.170 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -40
07:47:18.182 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -36
07:47:18.193 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -28
07:47:18.235 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -36
07:47:18.246 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -48
07:47:18.258 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -56
07:47:18.271 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -84
07:47:18.283 From LinnStrument MIDI Pitch Wheel 1 -104
07:47:18.294 From LinnStrument MIDI Note Off 1 D♯3 35
