Reality Check Time 5:1 and costs

[x_bruce]

Ok, I have to do a Sonar 4 Producer review. I discussed my stereo only system prior to the review being set up and was told don't worry.

But now I'm worried.

I'm running a stereo system. I have a Delta 44 4 out card. I lack speakers and a subwoofer.

Mixing in 5:1 is actually a dream to me. I've been interested for years. However I just had a discussion and perhaps some people brighter than me can help out.

If I were to go 5:1 I'd need at minimum:

* 1 Delta 66 or similar 4 output card, less inputs are ok, I don't usually use more than 3 and the thought of installing another PCI card makes my body hurt.
* 2. I use KRK speakers. I have two. I'd need to purchase three more and a subwoofer which is double the cost of a single speaker, so....let's call it an extra five speakers just for price purposes.
* 3. But wait, there's more. Two speaker stands and any isolation material they need. Isolation materials for the center speaker and whatever isolates the sub woofer.
* 4. After doing all this I don't see any way to burn this to DVD, not even as a music DVD without a decoder like DTS or Dolby 5:1. Cost, a lot of money. I saw nothing for less than $1500 USD and I'm sure DTS and Dolby are incredibly high priced.

So, if you aren't doing this commercially and from my understanding you can't watch anything burned to a DVD but can save the files and watch on yours or other's setups providing they are the same host and possibly, the same video and audio cards.
Beyond being a tech junkie, what's the point? It is super expensive to do this on your own or is there something I'm missing? This is a nice big monsoon raining upon my fledgling DVD mastering hopes.

Of course I could be missing something????

[Warmonger]

You could get Vegas + DVD Architect 2 for $800, including a 5.1 AC3 encoder. AC3's not ideal, being a lossy codec, but at the higher bitrates, it's pretty good. DVD Architect is great. I've tried a few different authoring products, and this is definitely my favorite. It's definitely not cheap, but it's the best value I could find. Meanwhile, standalone AC3 encoders cost almost that much, so those really wouldn't save you any money.

Anyway, you only have to spend that money if you're serious about going 5.1. If you're not sure if you will like it, just get an Audigy and a cheapo set of 5.1 computer or hi-fi speakers.

I do think it's ridiculous that uncompressed waves can't be used though. I mean, what's the point in having all of that space if you're forced to compress it anyway?

I've worked with 5.1 once before, in a very expensive studio (5.1 HR824's, dual G5, Apple Cinema Display, Mackie 8-bus mixer, etc.), and it was just so much nicer than mixing in stereo, even in the same studio. If I could afford it, I would definitely go for it. And to think I wasn't even interested in surround going into the class!

[Chickenman]

I use Nuendo but they should be similar for surround (?)

You can use any cheap 6 output card for mixing in surround if all you're doing is film stuff or mixing your music.. I was using a genius soundmaker live 5.1 for ages

For recording and low latency performance of VST instruments etc, you will need to upgrade to another card with asio. I use a SB audigy 2 platinum ex which in reality is not as shit as they say, It caters for my current needs and the only thing that would see me upgrade is the need for more than 6 analog inputs.

I definately suggest either the audigy2 or terratec 6fire (think thats what it's called) if your "studio" is in fact, your bedroom or lounge

As for encoding....

you're just gonna have to buy a prog like vegas as Warmonger said. With the Nuendo encoder (I go to my friends studio to encode stuff) you can make either a DD ac3 file for dvd or a DD wav file that you burn to an audio cd (redbook) and can play back on any stereo equipped with a dolby digital decoder.... much fun!!!!

[thenumber23]

I've got some bad news - it's a problem that I have never seen addressed.

How do you switch from a 5.1 to Stereo setup? Here's the problem: On 5.1, you have each channel connected to one of 6 discreet outs on your soundcard. All is well so far. However, for stereo, traditionally the stereo feed from your soundcard would be fed to the subwoofer, which would have a crossover and send high frequencies to the satellites.

So, unless you want to make bass-less Stereo recordings after you finish your 5.1 recording, you've got a problem. Or, you would have to re-cable every time.

One possible solution is to buy primary stereo monitors that actually have good bass response and do without the sub for stereo recordings. Then, in the case of 5.1, the bass management of the PC program would simply not send bass material to your primary stereo speakers, and instead send it to the sub.

Brian

[Warmonger]

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. Are you saying that you have a 5.1 mix, and you want to play that mix on a 2.1 system? Or are you talking about two totally different songs, one that's 5.1, and another that's 2.1?

For the first situation, there's not really a good solution. Sure, you can just mix down the 6 channels to two, sending the front left and rear left to the left, and so on, but you'll almost always end up with a crappy mix, assuming that you used the rear speakers for more than just ambience. You'd be better off redoing the entire mix. 5.1 is totally different than stereo; I highly doubt a computer will ever be able to automatically make a good stereo mix given a surround mix as input.

If you're talking about two different songs, then it depends on your host, sound card, and studio setup. A surround host should let you specify a 2.1 (stereo with sub) setup in addition to a 2.0 (standard stereo). Then the host's export or render should be smart enough to export a stereo file including the bass. Sonar does this, and DP does too.

[thenumber23]

I was referring to the latter, or more specifically two songs: One as 5.1, the other as 2.0 (i.e. the sub does the bass management).

It sounds like you're saying Sonar can do what I was told by a Cakewalk rep that it can't - convert from one format to another upon mixdown. Well, more specifically I asked the Cakewalk rep if it could convert from 4.0 to 5.1 (pull bass content out of the 4 and make the '.1', and either leave the center channel silent or have it be a sum of front-left and front-right).

However, unless the soundcard driver handles bass management (which I have not seen, but it would make sense if this existed), then you'd be out of luck when switching between 5.1 and 2.0 playback.

I'd love to be wrong - I last did this research when Sonar 3 was released. Maybe it's gotten better since then.

Brian

[Warmonger]

Okay, I'm using the Sonar 4 demo right now, and it's save disabled, so I can't check the mixdown. But, I imported a couple of wave files, and set up surround, messed with the surround panner. My front left/right output pair is a couple of 2.1 computer speakers, and just for the sake of testing, I hooked up some headphones to the center/sub output. I can hear everything I'm supposed to be hearing, coming out of the right places. Now, I start a new song, use the default settings (which means stereo), and I can hear subwoofer output just fine in this without having to change any speaker settings or wiring.

I've done all of this, in the order I said, and aside from setting up the surround project the first time, I didn't have to change any settings. The next time I want to use surround, I simply make a surround bus.

[x_bruce]

This will sound like I'm an asshole but there isn't a prayer that I will spend money on Vegas DVD Architect 2, even though I have Vegas 2 and can update and save $300 or so for lossy compression.

Secondly, if I do 5:1 I want to distribute it and possibly put out a audio DVD.

It is folly to use inexpensive stuff up front - especially if you want to still do a stereo mix!!! It's also foolish to use different audio cards which is why I was willing to do a Delta or M-Audio. I have a Delta 44 that is rock solid.

For those who don't know, I'm broke, have m.s. and fibromyalgia (24/7 pain or lots of narcotics to fight it), don't feel bad for me. I rarely do, even in my worst moments. Since my livelyhood is gone and it would cost me $40,000 in medicine costs alone I'm priced out of my market as a sound engineer.

Many of the companies around here have been incredible by helping me to earn my NFR synth licenses. Now with musicFAQ I can eventually get reviews, interviews and various forms of agreements with companies that I enjoy working with, ney, feel honored to work with. In return software is hardly a problem. But it took 60 hour weeks to get there and three years of it while feeling like shit.

I wanted to make an album. It has been 4 or 5 years since I have. I can't profit from the project so it will all go to charity other than repaying my expenses. No risky accounting either as I'm over the Medicaid limit and have lost 2 studios and several guitars, basses and synths. That's how I got involved in software. It's not considered something you can sell, and yes, our health system in the U.S. doesn't care that you had a guitar for 20 years and have an attachment to it that's impossible to describe. $20,000 a year "agents" decide the fate of millions of sick people. They don't care if you are attached to a guitar you've used from day one of your career. It's an asset and you sell it before you get to be in the lowest percent wage bracket in the country.

So, using what I still know and from experience up through 2002 I went with an almost all Behringer system. 18 channel 2 bus plus monitor room, $200 for "B" stock unit, etc. I went with the KRKs as they've always been musical speakers. They were dirt cheap for near field monitors. Two of them with a sub cost about $600. Not exactly a huge amount of money. But there's the 3rd middle speaker so add on $150 more. Also add on $30 for decoupling foam and a minimum of $100 for stands for the back speakers. If they need Aurulex foam that's another $60. Suddenly, it's not cheap to get into 5:1. BTW, have those of you using Sonar been reading suggested lines of speakers? Mine didn't make the cut but they are still plenty good for what I do plus with a subwoofer they go to 35hz. The 5" monitors go down to 52hz. I've seen 8" that don't do a whole lot better and in my room sounded like shit.
Also, you are supposed to mix on the same speakers and the same model numbers. This is fundemental stuff. So we're clear my monitors cost $3500 in my previous system. I have no alusions as to what I'm getting into these days.

The reality is, if you want a professional quality recording you are spending anywhere from $1100 for so called budget speakers. Read the discussion about recommended equipment, it's an eye opener.

In part I bought decent speakers so my reviews would be more accurate. The whole setup I've gotten serves one purpose right now, it supports vocals, guitars and basses going into my althlon 2400xp based DAW. I don't have the power to do insert vocal, guitar and bass plus my virtual instruments and post processing for a mixdown. I will drop tracks down to audio only in dire emergencies. I want to work in real time and not compromise my recordings. The only weak area is the vocal processing but if necessary I can use no processing on the vox and use a natural room. My bathroom has wonderful acoustics for example.

I'm at a stage in life that if I've sufferred to put something together, and I've lived like shit for the last six months with three more to go just to finish off this system, I don't want to throw solutions together just to get it to work. I wouldn't use a damaged guitar with 60 cycle hum oozing from the pickups either.

I don't see any way around a $1500 to $2000 encoder and oops!, a sound card too. Add $300 - $500 minimum.

Total costs:
additonal speakers: $750
speaker accessories: $150
sound card: $300
5:1 converter $1500
minimum update price: $2700

It's not Cakewalk's fault, they're making 5:1 possible although they don't mention some of the hidden costs, like a converter.

I hope I didn't accidentally mix anything to Sonar 4 format without saving the original mix for Sonar Pro 3. I've also been mixing a lot of material I forgot I made over the year, all of it demos of some kind.

Why the bitching?
I don't think it is, it's legitimate questions we should all be prepared for

Why the personal stuff?
How do I avoid it and still make clear about the difficulties. It's not like I'm underemployed and kickin it. I'm under government mandated kickin it and have to give up everything but food and shelter, all new entertainment, no socializing, nothing fun to eat. No going out. No glasses, the script is $400 and not sure by a long shot to even help my vision, and I just got a rent increase because I made too much money as a young man, now it's coming back to haunt me with our wonderful human services.

btw, despite the grouchy tone of my response I feel honored to be able to work with the people I do in the development community. They treat me with decency and compassion, even the larger companies that have zero reason to. So all is not lost in wonderland.

[Ron Kuper [Cakewalk]]

How do you switch from a 5.1 to Stereo setup? Here's the problem: On 5.1, you have each channel connected to one of 6 discreet outs on your soundcard. All is well so far. However, for stereo, traditionally the stereo feed from your soundcard would be fed to the subwoofer, which would have a crossover and send high frequencies to the satellites.

Actually, SONAR 4 does this totally seamlessly and automatically. What you are describing is known as "downmixing." In SONAR we downmix automatically. Simply create your project mixing to a surround bus. Then reroute the surround bus to a stereo bus, and we automatically take care of all the adjustments, including the subwoofer.