I don't know why, but now I'm interested. Especially with Behringers price drop on everything. I can see it being a never ending wormhole.... but, can anyone with a modicum more experience than me (greater than zero) tell me if I'm missing something core in this build? I really just want to build a thick mono synth, and maybe build with the kids. I understand it's not primo gear.
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/m ... 624788.jpg
4x vco, a mixer, a LPF, random gen, 2x env, 1 lfo, 2vca, effects box, midi/usb io
Should I just be buying a cheap Model D or something instead...and saving a few hundred. Someone talk me into or out of it. Thanks.
Eurorack - does this make sense?
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- KVRAF
- 8658 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui
Well my journey into modular came to the tune of about $20k (so far i think), but i would never buy any of that stuff myself.
Not that theres any reason you shouldn't. I have slowed tho, considerably.
Anyway, looks like a functional setup u got
laid out there to me.
Not that theres any reason you shouldn't. I have slowed tho, considerably.
Anyway, looks like a functional setup u got
laid out there to me.
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- KVRAF
- 13992 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Seattle
I too have a considerable investment in eurorack over the past dozen years or so, and what you have chosen looks like you have succeeded in your expressed objective, and would be a greater (as in more expansive/versatile) hands-on/educational experience if/for using it with children than a more limited fixed architecture synth like a Model D. (IMHO)
The only suggestions I would make, is to perhaps/maybe swap (or add to) the mixer (which is very versatile as a mult, IF you had more things to mult TO/from), for a Behringer Four Play Quad VCA which would allow you to 'dial-in' each of the oscillators or other stuff, a bit differently/precisely. It would add some versatility, given it is DC coupled, for use with voltage or audio.
If you do swap it out, the Behringer 994 Multiples is $9.
Also swapping the noise module for a Behringer 150 Ring Mod / Noise / S&H / LFO ($39) would add a lot of variety/variation to your set-up, as would adding a Behringer 121 Dual VCF ($45) at some point. Check the power requirements/draw on modular grid, if you add any of these, to make sure everything is copacetic. (80% or less of max spec, of PSU)
The current prices on Behringer stuff is just crazy good. I have half a dozen things in my basket as well, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
Enjoy.
The only suggestions I would make, is to perhaps/maybe swap (or add to) the mixer (which is very versatile as a mult, IF you had more things to mult TO/from), for a Behringer Four Play Quad VCA which would allow you to 'dial-in' each of the oscillators or other stuff, a bit differently/precisely. It would add some versatility, given it is DC coupled, for use with voltage or audio.
If you do swap it out, the Behringer 994 Multiples is $9.
Also swapping the noise module for a Behringer 150 Ring Mod / Noise / S&H / LFO ($39) would add a lot of variety/variation to your set-up, as would adding a Behringer 121 Dual VCF ($45) at some point. Check the power requirements/draw on modular grid, if you add any of these, to make sure everything is copacetic. (80% or less of max spec, of PSU)
The current prices on Behringer stuff is just crazy good. I have half a dozen things in my basket as well, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
Enjoy.
Last edited by Shabdahbriah on Wed Aug 14, 2024 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm not a musician, but I've designed sounds that others use to make music. http://soundcloud.com/obsidiananvil
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Constructed Identity Constructed Identity https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=288890 - KVRian
- 1353 posts since 29 Sep, 2012 from Minnesota
DON'T DO IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!vstdls wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:58 pm I don't know why, but now I'm interested. Especially with Behringers price drop on everything. I can see it being a never ending wormhole.... but, can anyone with a modicum more experience than me (greater than zero) tell me if I'm missing something core in this build? I really just want to build a thick mono synth, and maybe build with the kids. I understand it's not primo gear.
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/m ... 624788.jpg
4x vco, a mixer, a LPF, random gen, 2x env, 1 lfo, 2vca, effects box, midi/usb io
Should I just be buying a cheap Model D or something instead...and saving a few hundred. Someone talk me into or out of it. Thanks.
You'll get yourself all hyped up, then the minute you click the BUY button it's all going to be backordered with no end in sight
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- KVRAF
- 13992 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Seattle
^^^ OR ... you learn patience, and look forward to acquiring your objective in due time.
I'm not a musician, but I've designed sounds that others use to make music. http://soundcloud.com/obsidiananvil
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- KVRAF
- 1771 posts since 1 Aug, 2006 from Italy
I'm not into modulars, but I have a few semimodular synths (and I plan to buy a small eurorack).
I can't see the image, anyway:
- I would add some attenuators (or attenuinverters / polarizers), in case the modules lack an attenuator on either the cv inputs or on the cv outputs - these are useful if you want any modulation to be less than 100% (or if you want to invert the modulation, in case of attenuinverters / polarizers)
- I would add a second mixer: your first mixer is for the oscillators, your second mixer can be used to mix together various modulation sources (for example an envelope and an lfo) in case the destination module has just one cv input.
- I don't know which lfo you plan to buy, but you can also use an oscillator as an lfo (actually an lfo is a low frequency oscillator). Some systems don't have dedicated lfo and just use a normal oscillator when needed instead (it's a philosophical/design choice). In my opinion, 3 oscillators are enough on a synth, but the fourth can be still useful if you plan to dial in some "4 note chords" (like a 7th chord). If you still buy an lfo module, maybe look for something that can be synced to tempo (this means "digital") or at least has a sync/reset input (so you can use a trigger to reset the phase and make it similar to "tempo synced).
- If you can, consider getting two filters or a module with two indipendent filters (or leave space in the rack to add one at a later stage). Have at least one of them switchable to highpass (well... you can also use a mixer and a polariser to mix the dry signal and with the inverted output of a lowpass in order to get an highpass... but I'd rather keep it self-contained in the filter module). Having a second filter is useful in many ways: you can clean up the low end (and maybe boost it with resonance - as with the MS-20 with its dual filters in series) or you can use them with different settings on left/right to get stereo effects together with 2 VCA (one for each channel - this is something I often do with my 2x Mother-32).
- I can spend hours playing with a step sequencer, so that's something I'd suggest as well. It doesn't need to be a eurorack module, it can be also an external unit. My preference goes towards an "analog style" step sequencer, like the Korg SQ-1 or the Doepfer Dark Time (this one is a great piece of gear, although expensive!), but also something like the Beatstep Pro can do the job (I'm not a fan of the encoders and the fact that you can't tell visually the value of each step, but it offers a lot of value with its 2x monophonic lines and the drum part, which can be used to trigger all sort of things... and it's also not limited to 16 steps). You're not forced to use a step sequencer to play notes, you can use it to modulate the filter cutoff for example (that's something I like doing). I'm not a fan of the Korg SQ-1 to play notes, because you can't transpose the sequence up and down (well... unless you add some cv externally), but it's still useful sometimes to play the filters... I don't know if you're into this kind of things, but I'd suggest to have a look into it.
Those are my suggestions... I'm going to build a small eurorack for myself sooner or later, with a bunch of modulator / utility modules to expand my semi-modular synths. For example, one of the things I want to buy is a sequential switch, so I can clock it with a gate / synced lfo and switch between two waveforms / sounds (I have a Korg Arp 2600M and the sequential switch is nice, but it runs only on its internal clock)... It's easy to go down the rabbit hole (that's why I didn't buy any eurorack yet).
Then it really depends on your goals. If you want just a thick monosynth to play bass, maybe 3 oscillators are enough and you don't need the things I suggested... but if you also want to play sequences, arpeggios, lead an such, maybe they can be useful (or maybe not).
If you want to use it mostly for bass, I'd also suggest a frequency divider Doepfer A-115, so you can feed an oscillator and get some lower octave squares which are in phase with the original oscillator (in the style of the SH-01 oscillator section, where you have a sub - which can also be switched to pulse, on that synth). So you have the option between a thick bass made out of multiple vco phasing/beating against each other vs a clean and deep bass (both are great, it depends on the song). Or you can use both together, for extra bass mud
I can't see the image, anyway:
- I would add some attenuators (or attenuinverters / polarizers), in case the modules lack an attenuator on either the cv inputs or on the cv outputs - these are useful if you want any modulation to be less than 100% (or if you want to invert the modulation, in case of attenuinverters / polarizers)
- I would add a second mixer: your first mixer is for the oscillators, your second mixer can be used to mix together various modulation sources (for example an envelope and an lfo) in case the destination module has just one cv input.
- I don't know which lfo you plan to buy, but you can also use an oscillator as an lfo (actually an lfo is a low frequency oscillator). Some systems don't have dedicated lfo and just use a normal oscillator when needed instead (it's a philosophical/design choice). In my opinion, 3 oscillators are enough on a synth, but the fourth can be still useful if you plan to dial in some "4 note chords" (like a 7th chord). If you still buy an lfo module, maybe look for something that can be synced to tempo (this means "digital") or at least has a sync/reset input (so you can use a trigger to reset the phase and make it similar to "tempo synced).
- If you can, consider getting two filters or a module with two indipendent filters (or leave space in the rack to add one at a later stage). Have at least one of them switchable to highpass (well... you can also use a mixer and a polariser to mix the dry signal and with the inverted output of a lowpass in order to get an highpass... but I'd rather keep it self-contained in the filter module). Having a second filter is useful in many ways: you can clean up the low end (and maybe boost it with resonance - as with the MS-20 with its dual filters in series) or you can use them with different settings on left/right to get stereo effects together with 2 VCA (one for each channel - this is something I often do with my 2x Mother-32).
- I can spend hours playing with a step sequencer, so that's something I'd suggest as well. It doesn't need to be a eurorack module, it can be also an external unit. My preference goes towards an "analog style" step sequencer, like the Korg SQ-1 or the Doepfer Dark Time (this one is a great piece of gear, although expensive!), but also something like the Beatstep Pro can do the job (I'm not a fan of the encoders and the fact that you can't tell visually the value of each step, but it offers a lot of value with its 2x monophonic lines and the drum part, which can be used to trigger all sort of things... and it's also not limited to 16 steps). You're not forced to use a step sequencer to play notes, you can use it to modulate the filter cutoff for example (that's something I like doing). I'm not a fan of the Korg SQ-1 to play notes, because you can't transpose the sequence up and down (well... unless you add some cv externally), but it's still useful sometimes to play the filters... I don't know if you're into this kind of things, but I'd suggest to have a look into it.
Those are my suggestions... I'm going to build a small eurorack for myself sooner or later, with a bunch of modulator / utility modules to expand my semi-modular synths. For example, one of the things I want to buy is a sequential switch, so I can clock it with a gate / synced lfo and switch between two waveforms / sounds (I have a Korg Arp 2600M and the sequential switch is nice, but it runs only on its internal clock)... It's easy to go down the rabbit hole (that's why I didn't buy any eurorack yet).
Then it really depends on your goals. If you want just a thick monosynth to play bass, maybe 3 oscillators are enough and you don't need the things I suggested... but if you also want to play sequences, arpeggios, lead an such, maybe they can be useful (or maybe not).
If you want to use it mostly for bass, I'd also suggest a frequency divider Doepfer A-115, so you can feed an oscillator and get some lower octave squares which are in phase with the original oscillator (in the style of the SH-01 oscillator section, where you have a sub - which can also be switched to pulse, on that synth). So you have the option between a thick bass made out of multiple vco phasing/beating against each other vs a clean and deep bass (both are great, it depends on the song). Or you can use both together, for extra bass mud
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35518 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Cant see the image, so dont know what the spec is, but honestly, speaking as someone with a reasonably large euro system, I think you might be better off with the Model D or similar. At £220 in the UK, its cheaper than most powered cases, empty.
Its still semi-modular, so you've got scope to add a case and individual modules later, and the investment in having 'enough to get going' is way lower, even if you stuck to Behringer.
I guess a Behringer System 15 might be an option as a starting point if you really want to go modular, and you want something Model-D adjacent.
Its still semi-modular, so you've got scope to add a case and individual modules later, and the investment in having 'enough to get going' is way lower, even if you stuck to Behringer.
I guess a Behringer System 15 might be an option as a starting point if you really want to go modular, and you want something Model-D adjacent.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRAF
- 13992 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Seattle
The image:
4x vco, a mixer, a LPF, random gen, 2x env, 1 lfo, 2vca, effects box, midi/usb io
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Shabdahbriah on Wed Aug 14, 2024 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not a musician, but I've designed sounds that others use to make music. http://soundcloud.com/obsidiananvil
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- KVRAF
- 16870 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
What that image looks like for me:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. 
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- 8087 posts since 9 Jan, 2003 from Saint Louis MO
Whenever I see a rack of basic subtractive synth modules and a MIDI-CV converter, I think that semi-modular is probably a better choice, in terms of both cost and ease of use.
The main reason to go full modular now is to go beyond the usual building blocks. Modular offers some some unique methods for sequencing and modulation as well as some exotic modules not available anywhere else. (Although a good argument could be made for sticking to software modular, especially VCV Rack which also offers a stunning variety of modules, most of which are free or very cheap.)
Don't know if I've said it on KvR or just elsewhere, but if I were starting over I'd probably run with some semi-modulars, good controllers and software modular, and not actual Eurorack. In 2016 when I first got into Eurorack, there weren't so many excellent semi-modular choices, and the software modular offerings were not so great IMHO.
I also think if you're going into Eurorack, it's best to acknowledge that it's going to be expensive and all-consuming; trying to cheap out (on power or a case, or on modules) is probably ironically going to be a waste of money. And when I see all-Behringer I'd like to point out Ladik, Doepfer, Dreadbox etc. as other relatively less expensive brands that really open up the variety of available options.
The main reason to go full modular now is to go beyond the usual building blocks. Modular offers some some unique methods for sequencing and modulation as well as some exotic modules not available anywhere else. (Although a good argument could be made for sticking to software modular, especially VCV Rack which also offers a stunning variety of modules, most of which are free or very cheap.)
Don't know if I've said it on KvR or just elsewhere, but if I were starting over I'd probably run with some semi-modulars, good controllers and software modular, and not actual Eurorack. In 2016 when I first got into Eurorack, there weren't so many excellent semi-modular choices, and the software modular offerings were not so great IMHO.
I also think if you're going into Eurorack, it's best to acknowledge that it's going to be expensive and all-consuming; trying to cheap out (on power or a case, or on modules) is probably ironically going to be a waste of money. And when I see all-Behringer I'd like to point out Ladik, Doepfer, Dreadbox etc. as other relatively less expensive brands that really open up the variety of available options.
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Constructed Identity Constructed Identity https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=288890
- KVRian
- 1353 posts since 29 Sep, 2012 from Minnesota
I agree with the above. From your rack, it looks like a Behringer 2600 would be a better option.
I would get the slightly upgraded version - blue or grey.
I would get the slightly upgraded version - blue or grey.
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- KVRAF
- 13992 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Seattle
Actually, that ^^^ would be something to consider.
I'm not a musician, but I've designed sounds that others use to make music. http://soundcloud.com/obsidiananvil
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 271 posts since 26 Jun, 2021
These responses are awesome. You have all made me "waste" the past 24 hours on this between work meetings. I think everyone has made a great points. I understand Behringer is not ideal, but the prices right now....
While Doepfer makes good looking, affordable things from what I've seen... the Behringer prices.....
I'm now here. Under $640ish for all.
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/m ... 625352.jpg
I've taken all your advice (I think) and still built something weird for myself... if you DO check it out, please let me know if there's something in there that's just incredibly misguided... other than going mostly BehruRack.
While Doepfer makes good looking, affordable things from what I've seen... the Behringer prices.....
I'm now here. Under $640ish for all.
https://cdn.modulargrid.net/img/racks/m ... 625352.jpg
I've taken all your advice (I think) and still built something weird for myself... if you DO check it out, please let me know if there's something in there that's just incredibly misguided... other than going mostly BehruRack.
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- KVRian
- 1272 posts since 13 May, 2015
Have you included a rack and power?
My experience FWIW:
If you REALLY KNOW you only want a simple mono synth buy a semi modular (or 2 or 3 for different flavours) and save yourself money in the long run.
The B2600 is a great value option as a mono synth but also as a way to see if you like this whole patching thing.
However I bought one and quickly learned I loved it and inevitably yearned for more and ended up with a Mantis rack and filled it with modules. I am looking to sell the B2600 now.
If, as I suspect, you already know you await to get into Modular but are looking to keep the cost down, buy a decent size case (the Mantis is great value) and fill it SLOWLY. Not only will this spread the cost but will enable you to learn and decide what you want going forward and avoid mistakes. This is common advice you will hear from many Eurorackers.
Nothing wrong with the Behringers, unless you take a moral objection to their practices (which if you do is of course your prerogative)I understand Behringer is not ideal, but the prices right now....
I can vouch for Behringer Victor. It is my current favourite oscillator, sounds great, fun to play with, comes with CV out joystick and only £69 in the UK atm.
I can also recommended Four LFO as a powerful modulation source. You could also consider the Chaos as a modulation source and sequencer. I have one.
Of course you won’t be taken seriously unless you have a MN Maths in your rack but they are £279. But you are in luck! The Behringer Abacus is only £78. Mine works great.
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- KVRAF
- 8658 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui
well it depends in what you want, aside from the moral issues, build quality and component
quality of the behhri stuff, is not really in line with most other manufacturers. i know folks
who buy the stuff and then swap out all the
potentiometers, switches, faders etc. because they are simply mass produced as cheaply as possible. the bulk of modular devs
do it because they are passionate about it,
definitely their chances of getting rich from
it are very low, but their build quality is typically going to be better than behri id wager. That still doesnt mean they are not
worth buying for many.
quality of the behhri stuff, is not really in line with most other manufacturers. i know folks
who buy the stuff and then swap out all the
potentiometers, switches, faders etc. because they are simply mass produced as cheaply as possible. the bulk of modular devs
do it because they are passionate about it,
definitely their chances of getting rich from
it are very low, but their build quality is typically going to be better than behri id wager. That still doesnt mean they are not
worth buying for many.