high gain amp sims: I don't get it

[Liz Gupton]

I watch a major youtube guitar channel play an amp sim and get awesome tone.
I download that sim and try it.
I get a squawky, compressed, nasal tone.

Every time.

Yes, I'm using an IR cab. Yes, I have good gear. My audio interface is a Focusrite 6i6. My headphones are DT770 Pro. My IR loader is Ignite Nad1R, the one everyone uses. My EQ is Ozone 11. I'm using REAPER.

FWIW I'm trying to get this to work with the DI guitar from the Ample Guitar LP plugin. I don't have a guitar. I do have a bass, and I've recorded the high strings, and gotten tone no better than the Ample Guitar tone. That plugin has the cleanest, most consistent tone of any of the guitar synths I've tried. But if I could get any sim to work with the high strings of my bass, I'd consider that a successful test, too.

On clean tones, they get a creamy, smooth tone. I get a grainy, harsh tone.
On crunchy tones, they get...crunchy tones. I get a grainy, harsher tone.
On high gain tones, they get a smooth roar. I get a squawky, compressed, nasal tone.

I look for the link in the description for the IR they used and it is not there. I google for it and it is unobtanium. So I use the one from Spectre Sound Studios. It's dark...and squawky. I use the one from frightbox. It's...brighter and squawky. I use the one from Ignite Emissary. It's...also bright and squawky. I use the MIKKO one. Bright and squawky.

All of these are MUCH better than nothing. They knock most of the harsh tone down. But they don't do enough.

I have an EQ set for a low-pass filter. I set it at about 7K, which is lower than almost anyone else does. It's not enough. Any lower and it sounds like they're playing in the next room.

That's another critique I have of high-gain sound. These things all sound like they're playing in the next room. Or they've scooped the center right out of my brain. I feel like I have to stick a finger in my ear and give a good stir, because the sensation of so much middle missing is physically irritating to listen to.

But when they play in the video? A smooth, full roar. Definitely not what I get.

Here are the sims I've used and HAVE had success with:

AmpliTube 5 CS, the Sld100 amp (and the Marshall, too, and even the Fender)
Neurontube Debut NT300 (the NEU-100 not so much)
LePou Le456 (I tried several LePou amps and this is the only one I liked)
LePou HyBrit (I guess I liked this one, too)
Emissary was alright on clean, not so much on high gain
L12X by audiority
EVOampLite

All of these I'm going to give a thumbs up PROVISIONALLY. I got them to work on certain settings. Typically, I had to turn the presence up or it sounded like they (like all other sims) were playing in the next room. I tended to not be able to get a lot of gain without squawk. I tended to get a single tone I liked. And I tried way more than a dozen sims that I didn't like, some of them big names, like the Amped Roots. The hard-to-find Nalex Pectifier? OMG that one was so disappointing I got angry for the effort it took to find the thing.

Does there exist a single youtube demo where the named IR is in the description, like they say it is, AND CURRENTLY AVAILABLE? Where their entire signal chain is documented AND AVAILABLE?

I'm going to give a shout out to Spectre Sound Studio for describing his setup and actually providing IRs, when he raved about Amped Roots. But I tried it and I got a squawky, compressed, nasal tone.

[Broken]

If you're using a sample library for your guitar sounds the output of the library is going to be hotter than what most amp sims are designed to expect. Try reducing the output level of the sampler by 10 - 20dB and see if that improves it. Using a plugin between the sampler and amp sim is probably the easiest way to consistently do it.

[lfm]

As Broken said and also when you play a guitar with a pick or whatever you also feel a response and that adds to how you play.

Notes are way too consistent in a guitar library, I would think, to even use as replacement for a guitar.
- to play keys like they were a guitar is a separate skillset
- heavy use of mod and pitch wheel I would think

Then do you voice the chords in the same way as on a guitar?
Open E major as example
- E B E on left hand possibly, and G# B E in right hand
- so the third G# occur only once, 3 E in different octaves and 2 B

You voice it like keyboard player or a guitar player?

If you have a bass, why not get a guitar too?

[Liz Gupton]

If you're using a sample library for your guitar sounds the output of the library is going to be hotter than what most amp sims are designed to expect. Try reducing the output level of the sampler by 10 - 20dB and see if that improves it. Using a plugin between the sampler and amp sim is probably the easiest way to consistently do it.

At my current settings a Seldano 100, with OD turned off, will start to have hair on the clean channel at 3.5 on the preamp, and 0.5 on the crunch channel. If I turn things down 10db, the crunch channel acts clean and the clean channel can't have hair at all. That's AmpliTube. My LePou HyBrit acts about the same. Just two points, and they aren't necessarily expecting the same level, but I don't think my synth is too hot.

The saturation pedal I'm using for OD I ended up turning UP so that, before turning up the gain, I get a reduction in levels on the meter but a perceived slight boost. It had been lower than that. The tone I'm currently after I mostly leave this pedal bypassed.

If anything I think I'm a little low in gain, but not by a lot. I have tried turning it up but that doesn't change my tone substantially unless I go too far.

[Liz Gupton]

- to play keys like they were a guitar is a separate skillset
- heavy use of mod and pitch wheel I would think

Yeah, I think it would be easier to learn guitar on guitar than in any of these guitar synths, even if you already play keys. And none of them play the same.

Then do you voice the chords in the same way as on a guitar?
Open E major as example
- E B E on left hand possibly, and G# B E in right hand
- so the third G# occur only once, 3 E in different octaves and 2 B

You voice it like keyboard player or a guitar player?

AGLP has a keyboard mode that will voice whatever string is necessary to sound what you're playing, but more interestingly, it has a strummer and a riffer (sequencer) which mind which strings are sounding. You voice it like a guitar player.

The keyboard mode sounds like crap. Two notes on the same string will play, but they do NOT sound good. "Playing" this thing is pretty much a non-starter. You kinda have to sequence it. I'm willing to do that.

I remember when Shreddage 2 launched there was at least one person that made a video playing the thing live, and it was impressive. Probably someone who practiced it all through development. It's the only time I've ever seen anyone do that, I can't find that video anymore, and I haven't seen anyone else do it well since. Pretty much when you hear anyone getting anything listenable out of these things, they are sequencing it.

If you have a bass, why not get a guitar too?

Because of a financial pickle, I ended up with a bass and no bass amp and a guitar amp and no guitar lol.

[Liz Gupton]

Notes are way too consistent in a guitar library, I would think,

Here's where they ALL fail, BTW. All the modern ones have some sort of "realistic playing noises", and they are HORRIBLE. You get the same noise, every time you play the same thing in the same way. It doesn't sound like realistic playing noises. It sounds like incompetent playing, or broken gear. I have no idea why anyone tolerates, or even likes, these stupid noises.

AGLP lets you turn off the intentional ones, but on the highest velocity layer there are fret noises. D'oh! But it is by far the one that cleans up the best when you turn this crap off. They don't use enough samples on the higher frets or the higher strings, but there are a lot of good, clean tones on this plugin. You just can't do EVERYTHING with it.

[donkey tugger]

What type of tone are you after? If you can post an example or two I'm sure some of the good people on the more METEL side of the house will be able to assist.

[Broken]

Can you post an example of the offending tone? Also a link to that demo of the amp sim you liked the sound of would help.

[Dirk Diggler]

First problem is they were all designed to be played by an actual guitar or bass, not samples.

I have yet to hear any guitar VSTi that sounded anywhere close to an actual guitar even steeped in tons of distortion.

There is always something telling in the attack of the samples, I think it's just the fake pick attack that makes it stand out.

[pekbro]

I don’t see how anyone can create good guitar stuff without an actual guitar.

[jlgrimes11]

It is pretty hard to play convincing guitar parts with a keyboard.

You pretty much have to kind of know how to play guitar to pull off good sounds.

That said with well placed use of samples, you can fool the listeners but alot depends on what line you are playing.

Alot of times, I find it better to just play keyboard parts and not even do a guitar sound.

Clavinets can do certain elec guitar parts. Synth leads can blur the lines between a distorted guitar line. And the nylon acoustic guitar sample in old Romplers sometimes is exactly what you need. None of these sound like a real thing but sometimes they can get you close enough and might even be desirable in some cases.

As a keyboard player I sometimes have to play guitar parts on a keyboard. I usually cringe while doing so. Even hearing great keyboard players play guitar solo on keys can be cringe worthy.

Many times substituting a guitar part for something else sounds alot better for live stuff.

A real guitar player is difficult to emulate.

[YnJ]

I tried with Wedge Force Matcha which is a kind of virtual guitar which you can play with a keyboard. Instead of samples it creates or is at least supposed to create similar signals as an electric guitar. I play guitar, there are things you can do on a keyboard you can't on a guitar though, so I thought it would be fun. As it turned out, the skillset you need to make it work is to know how to create a miditrack, note for note, which sounds realistic. I don't know how to do that, the few midi track samples which came with the instrument sounded quite realistic when ran through a virtual amp though