Zebra 3 FMO - any way to set both carrier and modulator harmonics?

[tumface]

So, maybe I'm completely dumb and I'm missing something obvious, but I can't find a way to set both the carrier and modulator's harmonic number on an FMO. Like, if I want the carrier to be at harmonic 5, and the modulator to be at harmonic 2, I can't seem to do it. I can either turn the Ratio knob negative to move the carrier to harmonic 5, leaving the the modulator at harmonic 1, or turn the Ratio knob positive to move the modulator to harmonic 2, leaving the carrier at harmonic 1. And there doesn't seem to be a way to set the ratio lower than 1:1 in either direction. Am I dumb?

[joradn]

Setting it to 2.5:1 and increasing by an octave would be equivalent, no?

[Urs]

Yep

[tumface]

I was worried about that answer

Thinking out loud: my question to myself is, should I care about this?

If I want to use an FMO to add harmonics in a specific area like in an FM synth, I might pick something like a 5:3 ratio carrier:modulator ratio. With that, I'll end up with 1.6666… and I don't think I can input that in Z3 with enough precision to avoid beating in the harmonics. (Which, is fine. I don't think it makes sense to have 8 decimals of input precision in a synth instrument…) And repeating the process to try out different harmonic areas and patterns is a pain.

But, Zebra 3 isn't a dedicated all-FM synth. If I want to add harmonics in specific areas as if it were a 5:3 ratio, and control the loudness over time with an envelope, I can use a "standard" Z3 oscillator, use a curve to specify the part of the spectrum I want (and use FX to emphasize odd or even harmonics) and then put it on a separate lane assigned to a amp envelope.

OK, question answered. I'll do that, instead

(Would still be cool to get separate carrier-modulator knobs in the future, if it's ever revisited. Might be fun with the ModFM mode!)

[Urs]

You can always use two FMOs to perfectly and easily dial any ratio you want (but no feedback around them).

[tumface]

Also true!

[cvale]

Yeah this is one of my two big complaints about the FMO's currently. They are a huge improvement from Z2, but there really should be two separate knobs for carrier and mod frequencies rather than having one knob where you turn it one way to affect mod and the other way to affect carrier. The FMO's in many ways are so much more efficient than operator blocks on most other FM synths, but then you need two of them to do something as basic as this. (The other complaint, of course is the inability to have non-sine waves as the carrier.)

[pdxindy]

Yeah this is one of my two big complaints about the FMO's currently. They are a huge improvement from Z2, but there really should be two separate knobs for carrier and mod frequencies rather than having one knob where you turn it one way to affect mod and the other way to affect carrier.

I prefer the current approach. The way it is now, it always stays in pitch. It's easy to work with and modulate. So if your suggestion is going to be implemented, please make it an option.

[cvale]

Yeah this is one of my two big complaints about the FMO's currently. They are a huge improvement from Z2, but there really should be two separate knobs for carrier and mod frequencies rather than having one knob where you turn it one way to affect mod and the other way to affect carrier.

I prefer the current approach. The way it is now, it always stays in pitch. It's easy to work with and modulate. So if your suggestion is going to be implemented, please make it an option.

I feel like you must be misunderstanding something crucial, because "my" suggestion (i.e. to have the same controls of carrier/mod ratio that every other FM synth ever has had) doesn't present any complications of staying in pitch. And if anything, the current approach causes more problems regarding modulation.

[Urs]

every other FM synth

Zebra 2 is not like every other FM synth.

[cvale]

every other FM synth

Zebra 2 is not like every other FM synth.

Self-evidently not, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Sometimes we need to ask ourselves whether everyone else did things the way they did them for a good reason. (In this case, the answer is "yes," btw).

[Urs]

If Zebra 3 is a "no" and you want Zebra 3 to be like any other FM synth (which are "yes"), then why not use any other FM synth?

I do not care much about the validity of design decisions made for your standard conforming FM synths, regardless if they are based on algorithms or a matrix. None of these have much in common with Zebra 3, none have a legacy like Zebra 2, I know none that has similar options for Delta X, Through Zero and ModFM and squared (or not) feedback, and none afaik have any of the same antialiasing and character choices, let alone stereo operation throughout. As far as I know, we are the first ones to find the technical basis of nearly aliasing free FM synthesis.

So Zebra 3 has a dual operator layout in its FMOs. We dedicated 1 parameter to detune the designated modulator towards the designated carrier, with 1 global tune parameter for both. Which in by far most cases does the trick just fine, saves a redundant knob and is exactly aligned with the overall concept. It's easy to use, but it is not "conforming" to the way all your other FM synths work.

I can not help you if you think you can't work with this, because adding a third tuning knob for a two oscillator layout just isn't going to happen. I hate redundancy more than an argument on KVR.

Funnily, Zebra 2, a 20 year old product, has no ratio knob in its FMOs at all. None. I can't remember anyone ever complaining about that. I can't work out how suddenly people act as if we committed a crime against FM synthesis. We did not. We expanded it and made it a lot more accessible than most FM synths with similar complexity, should they exist.

[Urs]

(that said, I'm open to work out a table with common FM ratios and how to set them up in Zebra 3, no problem with that)

[ksandvik]

Now, if u-he made the definite FM synth plugin! One with near infinite ways to modulate just anything with anything.

[ashone]

Zebra3 is our workhorse, so we expect a bit more from it lol