KVR Audio

pekadan · Post by **pekadan** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:44 am

Guys,

I'm currently mixing a song of mine. I use quite a lot of heavy distorted rhythm guitars in it and I have a very hard time fitting these into the mix. Need advice! See, I find that what really makes the guitars pump and sound heavy are the bottom frequencies (around 100Hz). If I lower gain on these freq, the guitars just sound weak and screamy. Currently, the guitars totally screw up the bassguitar and kick. Low-freq mess is what I've got.

How to clear up this mess without losing "guitar heaviness"? Tweaking EQ-levels delicately or notching certain frequencies? Other tricks?

tahome · Post by **tahome** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:57 am

It's a good practice to always keep the mix level at 0 for guitars.

Sorry, couldn't resist

--th

pekadan · Post by **pekadan** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:58 am

BTW. I appreciate all general tips and tricks you can give me. If you'd rather listen to the problem mix and give more specific comments, it's here: http://www.forpetessake.info/wait_for_me.mp3
(Guitars come in the first time at 0:20).

dimitar · Post by **dimitar** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:20 am

Great Music Wow

greetings!
I like the guitars!

insaneacyde · Post by **insaneacyde** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:20 am

I'm no science guy but have you tried giving your bass and kick more mids & treble? Also a medium compression and making sure they are panned centre helps. Another trick is to pan your guitars about 30% to left and 30% right or more (assuming you have two slightly differently eq'd mono guitar tracks) this gives fullness and at the same time opens space for your bass and kick in the centre of the stereo field.
Do you listen to Korn? Fieldy's bass is played very aggresively and has alot of mids (so much it clicks)while at the same time pushing out sub frequencies. This is to make up for the fact that Korn tunes down to A (bloody low)Hope this helps and please excuse my laymans terms

metalsvinet · Post by **metalsvinet** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:46 am

Maybe eq out the lows? Guitar-type distortion is basically a mid-range thing.

[edit]
I didn't listen to your track (no speakers here at work), so the above is based on prejudice only

Jafo · Post by **Jafo** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:56 am

scoop the mids!

slightly more precisely, try:
* cut several db between 250-800 hz to avoid muddiness
* add a few between 1-6 (3) khz for a little more cutting power
* add a couple between 6-8 kHz for clarity

play with a parametric eq (paris, whatnot) until you find the right frequencies.

have the vocals, bass, and drums fis into the holes you've just opened. but be careful; bass guitar and drum (ok, "kick" drum) have nearly the same frequency resonance.

compression also helps, but distortion does much the same thing. ;^)

-- just another f*cking observer

crusces · Post by **crusces** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:06 pm

Couldn't listen to the track yet, but i've done stuff like this before so here goes...

First of all: Heaviness usually comes from the bass, not from the guitars. Use low for bass and sub-low and mid for kick, then layer your guitars on top of that. Jafo's eq-ing sounds right first off, so that would be a good start for your guitar eq-ing.

Second: This is something out of personal experience, so see if it works for you. If you wanna go /really/ heavy, strum no more than 2 or 3 strings while playing your chords (preferebly the lowest). It will lessen the amount of spectrum used by the signal and give a good, heavy definition, especially when played nicely in sync with the bass. I find that this is a lot easier in mixing, because there is less chance of interfering frequencies which may make your mix sound muddy or undefined. This will, however, require re-recording your guitars.

This is NOT a scientifically proven method however, it's just something I found out 'by chance'.

Good luck...

pekadan · Post by **pekadan** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:05 pm

crusces and Jafo, if I scoop the mids and also the bottom frequencies (below what, 120Hz?), will this not just make the guitars bright and screamy? I feel I get the best distorsion sound (full & heavy, like) when I boost around 3kHz (like you said Jafo) AND around 100Hz. I don't let the guitars interfere with the bass below 80Hz, but they do blend with the bass and the kick around 100Hz. Do I just have to accept the guitars can't live in the 80-120Hz area and cut them out - even though I feel I want to hear them there - or is it more a question of delicate eq-ing and perhaps notching certain "crowded" frequencies in the 80-120Hz area (is that how I create those holes, Jafo)?

insaneacyde, I try both panning the guitars and boosting definition frequencies for the kick and bass. That does help to a large extent. The mids of Fieldy's bass, what frequencies would you say? Somewhere in the 250-800Hz range where Jafo recommends I scoop the guitars maybe?

dimitar, thanks man for the encouragement! I can't be all wrong so far then.

Thanks for helping guys. Really! I should say that I'm a total amateur at sound engineering, trying to make my own music sound good to, well, do it justice perhaps (or maybe fool people into believing it's better that it really is

). I don't know the terminology all that well. Please excuse my ignorance.

jens · Post by **jens** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:22 pm

usually you have to cut the low end of the guitars -
the bass should provide it - I am at work right now so I can't listen to your tune -but if you feel that the 'pump' gets lost if you reduce the low end of the guitars it might mean that you need to bring the guitars and the bass closer together - (mix-/rhythm-/melody-wise)

pekadan · Post by **pekadan** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:34 pm

Oh, I should have said in my first post that I don't play the guitars myself. No, actually I use, well ehm loops. These loops sound really weak originally so I've doubled the tracks and run them through a shitload of effects (e.g. compressor, distorsion, detuning, tube amp sim, saturator, delay, reverb) to make them sound big and heavy. Sort of half pleased with the result. I do wish I could play guitars. Haven't got the patience to learn.

Sorry crusces. Thanks anyway for the playing tips.

jens,

...might mean that you need to bring the guitars and the bass closer together - (mix-/rhythm-/melody-wise)

Ah, I think you have a very good point there, actually! The bass does not necessarily move with the guitars. That surely gives the impression they "compete" rather than give a powerful total. Thanks!

Red_Force · Post by **Red_Force** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:37 pm

Didn't hear the track on my laptop but here are some general advices on mixing :
- it's more about removing freq than adding. Don't forget than boosting one freq equals to lower all the others.
- generally you can start by lower freq between 1K and 2K.
- also keep in mind than the more one speaker has to play several instrument in the same freq the less definition it gives. This not always bad but if things start to get muddy, stereo can help.
- give yourself a constant audio ref for the result you're seeking. Sure, this Solo riff is less impressive with that 100 Hz cut, but actually in the reference mix the 100 Hz is rather obviously left to the bass. This is a way to realise that there are several way to get a powerfull sound and that all doesn't work in the whole mix...

crusces · Post by **crusces** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:51 pm

Do I just have to accept the guitars can't live in the 80-120Hz area and cut them out - even though I feel I want to hear them there - or is it more a question of delicate eq-ing and perhaps notching certain "crowded" frequencies in the 80-120Hz area

I guess you just have to

Keep in mind that you /interprete/ what you hear. Bottom end on heavy guitar is -repeat after me children- the bass guitar. Look up some reading on psychoacoustics if your're interested. Why do sound engineers want speakers that go well beyond the frequency range that any person can hear? Why do people insist on recording on a samplerate of 96KHz while 44.1KHz will take care of /more/ than your ears can register? A heavy /sounding/ guitar does not mean that it /is/ heavy, just that it /sounds/ heavy.

Off course, you can do whatever you want to. If everybody stuck to best practices, everything would sound the same. If you can manage to make it sound heavy by, for instance, boosting your guitars around 80-120 and cutting that out of your bass and kick signals, be my guest, but in general, it is not wise to have too many soundsources that reside in that range.

dreibel · Post by **dreibel** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:00 pm

first off, the song itself is pretty good!

my personal observation: if you're layering rhythm guitars, back off on the distortion! A friend who was a sound engineer hipped me to this years ago.

Also, use a more distinctive sound for each rhythm part, whether it be using different pickups, effects or amps, or if you're using a modeler, using different models. Take a listen to AC/DC, they sound heavy but if you pan the parts on the recordings you'll find their parts are distinctive and surprisingly clean separate (Angus: Gibson SG through 50W Marshall on right side, Malcolm: Gretsch Jet Fire Bird through 100W Marshall on left). Layering like-sounding heavily distorted guitars tends to make it sound way too wooly and muddy, what you need are two distintive-sounding guitar tracks that will mesh nicely. Definitely follow the advice regarding panning too.

milchstrasse · Post by **milchstrasse** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:18 pm

i have exactly the same problem!
here's my mix:
Panjapol - Erwachsen
it's a german rock song with heavy distorted rythm guitars. i would like to hear the guitar on the right channel during during the refrain clear but this is only possible if i make it very loud. [/url]

How to fit heavy guitars into mix