Sgt. Pepper: "Crude" Eight-track recording?

[TheStorm]

I was complaining (OK, whining, sue me) on another music site about how difficult it was to mix and control a rock piece I recorded with a(n) digital orchestra. I was complaining that, at current count, I had 22 independent tracks (instruments), all going at the same time and that it was extremely difficult to control. And, of course that there should be some way to automate some of this stuff, but the impossibly crude state of recording/sequencing software made it nearly impossible.

Someone pointed out that Sgt. Pepper was recorded and mixed on an 8-track system (actually two four-track tape machines linked together somehow).

Um.

Really puts things in perspective, doesn't it? It's not the performer who controls the recording, but the engineer. We've come so far since Sgt. Pepper, but I don't think I could approach anything like the complexity of that recording, no matter how long I do this or how advanced the tools get.

I'll admit that while recording my solo CD I've gotten a lot better. But I've sure got a long way to go...

[Lunch Money]

True. There's a reason Beatles albums (Sgt. Pepper in particular) get quoted a lot in music forums-- not necessarily for pristine audio (in some ways, the album itself sounded... less than stellar, though it has wonderful character), but as evidence for what can be done with limited technology.

And rightfully so!

Greg

[ericj23]

bah - lee perrys mad dub extravaganzas from the late 70s (get vibrate on in you can) were done on a 4 track - they sure dont sound like it ! and in truth all the stuff he's done on better kit sounds much worse

[clueless]

yeah, it's a paradox. limitations seem to induce creativity. endless possibility seems to suck you up its arse.

[vurt]

true
slim down your arsenal to the few essential synths and you will find yourself creating more.
choice and leaisure are the enemy of creativity

and as i need limiting anyone whos looking to releive themselves of a shedload of hardware need look no further

[clueless]

anyone whos looking to releive themselves of a shedload of hardware need look no further

they're all one trick ponies vurt - very limiting

[Branst]

"Pop style has stopped happening. Style used to be, in part, a record of the technological limitations of the media of each period. The sound of the Beatles was the sound of what you could do if you pushed a '60's-era recording studio absolutely as far as it would go. Artists long for limitations: excessive freedom casts us into a vacuum. That is why "vintage" synthesizers are hotter right now than more flexible and powerful machines. Digital artists also face constraints in their tools, of course, but often these constraints are so distant, scattered and rapidly changing that they can't be pushed against in a sustained way." - Gary Numan

[Funkybot]

Well it seems to me that the answer here is quite simple. Limit yourself. If you're mixing 22 tracks of orchestra on top of a rock mix and can't get it to sound absolutely perfect, then don't try and get it to sound absolutely perfect. Find a rough mix of the instruments that works well using just panning and volume, don't worry too much (if at all) about automation of the individual tracks, and bounce it down to a stereo track that you'll compress and EQ later as necessary. Just pretend that all you have of the orchestra is that stereo track and make it work in your mix. If the song is good enough and so is the performance no one will notice. And while you may always think "I could've done that better with more time" you'll have gotten it done, which is more important. Anyway those are my two cents.

[JeffSanders]

Great thread and posts, guys. Perfect time for me to read this stuff. Must be a sign

Besides, it's always, always cool to see people appreciating the Beatles. Cheers.

[Montana]

"but as evidence for what can be done with limited technology. "


hehe. The stuff the Beatles had is some of the best equipment ever made. They just dont make it anymore because it's not "profitable" in the new fast food corporate world. Craft is not as important as bottom line. The same goes for the stuff Pink Floyd used. Much better than most stuff you can get today. But it was so expensive to maintain and produce that the cookie cutter fast food world just left it behind.

The Wall and Wish You were Here by Pink Floyd are easily the greatest sonic recordings of all time. Abeey Road comes close.

The use of analog reverb is very, very important in a timeless sounding recording.

[Stupid American Pig]

I was complaining (OK, whining, sue me) on another music site about how difficult it was to mix and control a rock piece I recorded with a(n) digital orchestra. I was complaining that, at current count, I had 22 independent tracks (instruments), all going at the same time and that it was extremely difficult to control. And, of course that there should be some way to automate some of this stuff, but the impossibly crude state of recording/sequencing software made it nearly impossible.

Someone pointed out that Sgt. Pepper was recorded and mixed on an 8-track system (actually two four-track tape machines linked together somehow).

Um.

Really puts things in perspective, doesn't it? It's not the performer who controls the recording, but the engineer. We've come so far since Sgt. Pepper, but I don't think I could approach anything like the complexity of that recording, no matter how long I do this or how advanced the tools get.

I'll admit that while recording my solo CD I've gotten a lot better. But I've sure got a long way to go...

Well to be technically correct- SGT pepper was recorded on a 4 track machine. What George Martin did was bounce 4 sub mixes to another 4 track machine. So they would fill up a 4 track tape, when they were satisfied that it would mix well with the other options they had in mind, they would bounce down to track 1 of tape machine 2. They would repeat 3 more times. This really sounds like a roayl pain in the arse, because if something didnt come out right, they would have to recreate a whole submix and rebounce. When you think about it its pretty amazing that the album ever got finished...

They had 7 track recording available towards the end of the White album sessions and abbey road, by linking 2 4 tracks together. The second machine had a "sync track" so only 3 of the tracks were available.

One thing about tape is that you can overdub on tracks alot more successfully than with digital, since you can go over 0 db, so that worked in their favor.

[Sascha Franck]

While I defenitely wouldn't want to work that way, it'll most likely make your jaws all drop watching the making of Sgt. Pepper - and eventually reading George Martin's "Summer of love" in addition.

I remember that when they wanted a random effect, they cut some metres of the tape in small pieces, threw them all around the room and glued them together after that. Uh!

Also, the tracking was just mad. Imagine having to record your lead vocals along with bongos only

[Stupid American Pig]

"but as evidence for what can be done with limited technology. "


hehe. The stuff the Beatles had is some of the best equipment ever made. They just dont make it anymore because it's not "profitable" in the new fast food corporate world. Craft is not as important as bottom line. The same goes for the stuff Pink Floyd used. Much better than most stuff you can get today. But it was so expensive to maintain and produce that the cookie cutter fast food world just left it behind.

The Wall and Wish You were Here by Pink Floyd are easily the greatest sonic recordings of all time. Abeey Road comes close.

The use of analog reverb is very, very important in a timeless sounding recording.

Agreed. They were limited in much different ways than we are. Sonically, while not a perfect reproduction, that equipment had a great sound to it. Abbey Road, DSOTM, and Wish you were here are excellent examples of the soundquality available then.

Actually my favorite sounding recordings from that era are John lennons solo works plastic ono band and imagine. They are VERY punchy recordings(Love those toms), the treble is subdued a bit, which gives them a slightly dark sound, and the tape echo on Lennons voice is fantastic...

[MickGael]

Actually my favorite sounding recordings from that era are John lennons solo works plastic ono band and imagine. They are VERY punchy recordings(Love those toms), the treble is subdued a bit, which gives them a slightly dark sound, and the tape echo on Lennons voice is fantastic...

S_A_P,
What do you think of the recent remaster/remixes of those albums? I think they are superb....

[duncanparsons]

true
slim down your arsenal to the few essential synths and you will find yourself creating more.
choice and leaisure are the enemy of creativity :x

and as i need limiting anyone whos looking to releive themselves of a shedload of hardware need look no further :hihi:

too true..

When I write, I normally visualize a 5 piece multi-instrumentalist band (like Gentle Giant) and write so that only 5 lines are going at once. I have a conceptual band 'The Non-Stop Random Access Jazz Band' who play my stuff. I find this a good limitation, it also means that theoretically I could get a band together and play the stuff live without too much rejigging. I assume a floor of Bass, Drums, Guitar, Keys and a melody instrument: but the melody player and guitarist can play keys too, and the keys play guitar. Each has a speciality but can pick up another instrument competently.

Of course I do deviate at times as the need arises. I used to like using my fourtrack, and seeing what I could get away with in building up a band sound just by playing everything myself. I would allow myself one bad timing, or one bum note per take (which could mean alot of takes!). I could get a reasonable sound and enjoyed it tremendouly, but digital does make alot of things easier, and I find it alot less stressful.

The Beatles are often credited as inventing Prog Rock with Sgt Peppers, and as such I doff my cap to it; tho' I must confess, I've never heard it all the way thru'!!!

DSP