drum kit from hell 1 or two
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
which is better? I use vsampler so the kompact thing isn't that big a deal. But which sounds better? Or are they same samples? I searched the forum but figured a query would be cool...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRist
- 418 posts since 19 Nov, 2002
Can't really speak for DFH 2...the demo MP3s for it are god awful mindless metal that don't showcase any of the dynamics and nuances of the kit.
I have DFH 1, however and there's good and bad points.
The good:
Snares are very useful and can sound super realistic. For example, I mapped four different dynamic snare hits (with six to seven velocity layers each) on keys C# through E. That way it's easy to get any kind of roll or fill to sound authentic. I'm very pleased with the snare realism. I also like the five toms, which are given enough dynamic hits to sound as realistic as you'd want. The "snareless" snares are also awfully good, if you like that particular drum sound.
The bad:
Bass drums are HORRIBLE. Unless of course you have a preference for that Lars Ulrich "click"-sounding bass drum. The only useful non-click-sounding bass drum is tuned too high (or the actual drum was too small). It's workable, but it doesn't have nearly the punch, low end, and dynamic range (i.e., not enough hits were recorded) to sound realistic enough.
Cymbals are mostly shit. Too bright and unnatural sounding, very hard to make work in normal, non-metal music. Although, the chinas and spock cymbals are an exception to this. They sound very, very good.
The hi-hats also suck. Not nearly enough dynamic range. The closed hats don't offer a crisp, tight "chick" sound AT ALL. This is a f**king crime, as it would have been useful for complex hi- hat patterns. The half-open hats aren't open enough. And the wide open hats won't suffice because they are TOO open, giving a bright shimmery sound that doesn't work at all for a steady rock beat.
So I recommend you buy DFH 2. It's about the same price and it's gotta be an improvement over DFH 1.
Oh and another bad point. The key mapping was done by Helen Keller. It's the worst, most illogical mapping ever. Don't look for GM compatibility (which is my preference). I like the familiarity and fun of GM mapping, but the DFH 1 team apparently did not. Lazy f**kers. If you want GM standard mapping, you'll have to start from scratch.
I was damned annoyed when I discovered this and the other glaring faults of the DFH 1.
I have DFH 1, however and there's good and bad points.
The good:
Snares are very useful and can sound super realistic. For example, I mapped four different dynamic snare hits (with six to seven velocity layers each) on keys C# through E. That way it's easy to get any kind of roll or fill to sound authentic. I'm very pleased with the snare realism. I also like the five toms, which are given enough dynamic hits to sound as realistic as you'd want. The "snareless" snares are also awfully good, if you like that particular drum sound.
The bad:
Bass drums are HORRIBLE. Unless of course you have a preference for that Lars Ulrich "click"-sounding bass drum. The only useful non-click-sounding bass drum is tuned too high (or the actual drum was too small). It's workable, but it doesn't have nearly the punch, low end, and dynamic range (i.e., not enough hits were recorded) to sound realistic enough.
Cymbals are mostly shit. Too bright and unnatural sounding, very hard to make work in normal, non-metal music. Although, the chinas and spock cymbals are an exception to this. They sound very, very good.
The hi-hats also suck. Not nearly enough dynamic range. The closed hats don't offer a crisp, tight "chick" sound AT ALL. This is a f**king crime, as it would have been useful for complex hi- hat patterns. The half-open hats aren't open enough. And the wide open hats won't suffice because they are TOO open, giving a bright shimmery sound that doesn't work at all for a steady rock beat.
So I recommend you buy DFH 2. It's about the same price and it's gotta be an improvement over DFH 1.
Oh and another bad point. The key mapping was done by Helen Keller. It's the worst, most illogical mapping ever. Don't look for GM compatibility (which is my preference). I like the familiarity and fun of GM mapping, but the DFH 1 team apparently did not. Lazy f**kers. If you want GM standard mapping, you'll have to start from scratch.
I was damned annoyed when I discovered this and the other glaring faults of the DFH 1.
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- KVRAF
- 7114 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
I bought DFH1 a couple of month ago and I like it a lot. And I will put a GM-mapping of it here this weekend for anybody using Vsampler.
The answer to get the right punch is to mix the room miking to right amount. I have made four different mixings which are ready, and one that you can use CC03 to adjust how much room miking you want to use.
The clever thing they did with DFH was to make an instrument with close miking and exactly them same mapping in another instrument with room miking.
Hihats are made 8 levels of openness, from wide open to close. This is adjusted by CC11 in my mapping and you can get the right cooshness when hitting hihats.
In my taste I like the bright sounding ride. Maybe the crash cymbals are not that powerful that I hoped for. But I put these in a cycle group which chooses a different crash every time you hit.
The closemiked toms I didn't like much, but with added room miking it got the powerful punch I was looking for anyway.
In my taste I like the kick all the way from dry until some room miking. Too much room and it sound not so good.
I will make a small testmix of result when I put the VS3-library out(probably this weekend).
Comparison with DFH2. I did not test it. It looked to complicated to learn another sampler when I have one that I know well. But there was one guy at http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk with the free nskit that had bought DFH2 and thought it was crap. Look at their forum. he was turning to nskit instead.
There will be another nskit out withing 2-3 month or so. In my taste he is going a bit far with doing 128 layer mapping of each instrument. I don't really want to use up that much resources just for drums. And he is not into making you adjust room miking yourself. I tried getting him into doing that, but he was not interested.
But otherwise he has good sounding samples. It's always nice to have many different kits to choose from. Try the nskit7free.
DFH1 is though my #1 choice still.
The answer to get the right punch is to mix the room miking to right amount. I have made four different mixings which are ready, and one that you can use CC03 to adjust how much room miking you want to use.
The clever thing they did with DFH was to make an instrument with close miking and exactly them same mapping in another instrument with room miking.
Hihats are made 8 levels of openness, from wide open to close. This is adjusted by CC11 in my mapping and you can get the right cooshness when hitting hihats.
In my taste I like the bright sounding ride. Maybe the crash cymbals are not that powerful that I hoped for. But I put these in a cycle group which chooses a different crash every time you hit.
The closemiked toms I didn't like much, but with added room miking it got the powerful punch I was looking for anyway.
In my taste I like the kick all the way from dry until some room miking. Too much room and it sound not so good.
I will make a small testmix of result when I put the VS3-library out(probably this weekend).
Comparison with DFH2. I did not test it. It looked to complicated to learn another sampler when I have one that I know well. But there was one guy at http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk with the free nskit that had bought DFH2 and thought it was crap. Look at their forum. he was turning to nskit instead.
There will be another nskit out withing 2-3 month or so. In my taste he is going a bit far with doing 128 layer mapping of each instrument. I don't really want to use up that much resources just for drums. And he is not into making you adjust room miking yourself. I tried getting him into doing that, but he was not interested.
But otherwise he has good sounding samples. It's always nice to have many different kits to choose from. Try the nskit7free.
DFH1 is though my #1 choice still.
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- Rad Grandad
- Topic Starter
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
thanx guys...I still haven't decided yet, But I am ordering one of the today...looks like the deciding factor might be who I get it from. Sam Ash has both but audiomidi only has 2. I haven't bought from Sam Ash before,(but they've been around close to as long as me) I have done a lot business with Audiomidi, in fact my ups driver knows if he see's a box with their logo he's coming to see me.
Thanx geese for your input, I read your post in another thread about the demo and almost pmed you...
Thanx geese for your input, I read your post in another thread about the demo and almost pmed you...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 7114 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
Download VS3 library(zipped with readme-file):
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/gmdfh1.zip
Readme file inside explains all there is.
DFH samples are not included of course.
This is based on DFH1 Multiformat, Halion import, and then modified.
Demonstration CC11 controlling hihat openness:
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/dfh-hihatopeness.mp3
Demonstration CC03 controlling room miking amount:
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/dfh-roomness.mp3
Just hitting different parts of drumkit.
A testmix where amount of room miking is increased throughout mp3:
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/Jam1.mp3
Done with drumpads and an expression controller through a synt.
Then just increasing CC03 on an Evolution UC33 for more room along the mix.
Quite dramatic difference in sound with authentic room miking.
Have fun!
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/gmdfh1.zip
Readme file inside explains all there is.
DFH samples are not included of course.
This is based on DFH1 Multiformat, Halion import, and then modified.
Demonstration CC11 controlling hihat openness:
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/dfh-hihatopeness.mp3
Demonstration CC03 controlling room miking amount:
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/dfh-roomness.mp3
Just hitting different parts of drumkit.
A testmix where amount of room miking is increased throughout mp3:
http://www.frndsw.com/privat/Jam1.mp3
Done with drumpads and an expression controller through a synt.
Then just increasing CC03 on an Evolution UC33 for more room along the mix.
Quite dramatic difference in sound with authentic room miking.
Have fun!
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- Rad Grandad
- Topic Starter
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
thanx I'll try that mapping However I didn't realize that last night I was looking at the price for version 1 at audiomidi. Two was only 15 bux more, but I haven't heard any good things about it like I have the first one. Seeing how I don't need the sampler anyhow (I'm sure you agree, Vsampler is cool). Plus I figure I can take the extra 15 bux and have it here midweek...so it's ordered. BTW the fact that the samples are not mapped is a selling point to me, that's precisely what I want... 
However I didn't realize that last night I was looking at the price for version 1 at audiomidi. Two was only 15 bux more, but I haven't heard any good things about it like I have the first one. Seeing how I don't need the sampler anyhow (I'm sure you agree, Vsampler is cool). Plus I figure I can take the extra 15 bux and have it here midweek...so it's ordered. BTW the fact that the samples are not mapped is a selling point to me, that's precisely what I want... The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 7114 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
Remember that DFH2 is in encrypted format and can only be used with the included Kompact player, or NI Kontakt full version sampler as I understand it.
DFH1 is general mapped formats for different samplers and normal wav samples as base. I bought Gigastudio and Halion(multiformat DFH).
A separate sampler is an extra investment, but ever so useful. You can load Grand pianos, brass ensembles, orchestral samples and lots of stuff. And the number of sample cds out there is enormous.
And get a GM synt sample set and load in sampler to get low latency realtime playing, instead of high latency MS Wavetable synth. I run Vsampler standalone and run a virtual midi cable from sequencers to do general purpose sequencing that is run towards soundcard otherwise.
DFH1 is general mapped formats for different samplers and normal wav samples as base. I bought Gigastudio and Halion(multiformat DFH).
A separate sampler is an extra investment, but ever so useful. You can load Grand pianos, brass ensembles, orchestral samples and lots of stuff. And the number of sample cds out there is enormous.
And get a GM synt sample set and load in sampler to get low latency realtime playing, instead of high latency MS Wavetable synth. I run Vsampler standalone and run a virtual midi cable from sequencers to do general purpose sequencing that is run towards soundcard otherwise.
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- Rad Grandad
- Topic Starter
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
I didn't get that impression, but you could be right...I thought the special sampler was optional for use, either way I bought dkfh 1 so it doesn't matter. I notice if yoy look here on kvr about dkfh2 and blow up the screenshot it says the sampler is using 33% of the cpu...vsampler doesn't do that to me. I use Eastwest real drums now combined with a tama sound font and I use bass samples in the vsampler as well..my drumkit has 4 snares, 9 cymbals, 9 toms (a 2nd set of mounted toms tuned higher was added) all multi velocity samples. The thing about vsampler I like so much is I can have up to 16 outputs, but I use 4 for drums and one for bass...the drums are grouped Kicks, snares, cymbals and hats and toms...so when I render and import to AA I have four drum tracks, I then assign the a bus and put fxs on the bus and eq the tracks...that's why I want to have to construct my kit, that way I can be more precise in achieving what I want for drums...thanx for your input it was a great help...Remember that DFH2 is in encrypted format and can only be used with the included Kompact player, or NI Kontakt full version sampler as I understand it.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- 7114 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
OK, I got the impression you maybe bought DFH2.
My Vsampler library has one bank column which is 5 output instruments all of them in different mixes with room miking.
1st kicks, 2nd snares, 3rd toms, 4th hihats, 5th cymbals.
I do as you do, some compression and stuff in the mixer console afterwords.
Yes, Vsampler is great.
Best regards
My Vsampler library has one bank column which is 5 output instruments all of them in different mixes with room miking.
1st kicks, 2nd snares, 3rd toms, 4th hihats, 5th cymbals.
I do as you do, some compression and stuff in the mixer console afterwords.
Yes, Vsampler is great.
Best regards
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Douglas Whates Douglas Whates https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=17237
- KVRist
- 81 posts since 16 Mar, 2004
I'd just like to clear a couple of things up here...lfm wrote:There will be another nskit out withing 2-3 month or so. In my taste he is going a bit far with doing 128 layer mapping of each instrument. I don't really want to use up that much resources just for drums. And he is not into making you adjust room miking yourself. I tried getting him into doing that, but he was not interested.
ns_kit7(full) doesn't have 128 velocity layers per instrument. There are *many* variations in articulation (i.e. rim-shots, high rim-shots, roll type hits, clicks etc.), but not 128 layers per instrument. The live playback kit (i.e. for triggering through v-drums and the likes) will have up to 128 layers on account of the various articulations (L&R hand, particularly) being mapped to the same midi note.
Douglas.
Douglas Whates
https://douglaswhates.com
https://douglaswhates.com