The great music copyright debate.

[herodotus]

I have seen this debate scattered across various threads, and so I thought it was time for it to have its very own.

Now while everyone here is (quite rightly) against the unauthorized use of software, It is a very different case with music. While software developers are just plain screwed by theft, the situation for musicians is much more complex.

An example: a co-worker of mine is mostly into death metal and very political hip hop. She listens to very little singer-songwriter based indie-rock. Someone burned a copy of a Bettie Serveert c.d. and gave it to her. She would never have heard this c.d. had it not been burned for her. She just isn't exposed to that kind of music in her day to day life.

She has since gone to see this band live and bought two more of their discs. She is now a fan. The chances of this having happened without the initial act of 'theft', (i.e. the c.d. being burned for her) are minimal.

Now it is clear that in this case that an act of 'theft' was beneficial to the band: they recieved income (i.e. the money from the tickets and c.d.s subsequently bought) that they would not have received otherwise.

So with that as a starting point.....LET THE FIGHT BEGIN!

[liars&ashes]

----I agree,and I disagree....It could be argued all day,I just figure if I'm gonna use/enjoy it a lot,like repeated times,then it's time to buy it.
----A free preview does not mean,the whole thing free forever. Often times the free previews given to potential customers are not of a quality,or length of time etc. that can really help sell the product. In that case,I borrow it,or go to the store,or someone's place who has it already (legally hopefully) and get a better preview,if I'm still that interested.
----Ideally,everything would be donation-ware,but we all know that doesn't work.
----Ultimately,we're back to advertising,and sharing,like old skool style - loaning someone a book or movie videotape has never been a crime before,so if I loan someone a cd/dvd/software,then I refuse to feel like I am all of a sudden breaking the law. If I loan something to someone,and they like it,I tell them where I got it,and what to expect to pay for it,the rest is up to them.

Jeff

[seamoss]

but couldn't that argument work for the software as well? Couldn't you have had a friend that would have never tried sonar because he was a long time user of cubase.....then one day you burned him a copy of sonar and from that day foward he has bought sonar and paid for every update.???

[seamoss]

you can argue anything, really


but people don't argue at kvr

[Metanol]

Hmm. Dont know about you there, but here downloading music and burning cd.s or otherwise copying music for PERSONAL use is not illegal.
If you start to sell the copies or play them in clubs or similar, then it´s illegal.

Programs are different thing.

[Hink]

you can argue anything, really


but people don't argue at kvr

nah we just shoot from the hip...

[Bake]

I use Slsk to D/L things that I hear about that I think I might be interested in. If I like it, I always want to own the real cd. I hate cd-r's with mp3 burns on them. MP3's always sound like shit to me once I hear the real mastered version of an album.
There's a bunch of albums that I never would have bought had I not checked them out first to make sure it deserved my hard earned cash.

A few Mogwai cd's I own come to mind...

[Emerald Tablet]

software is a different case ... many software products have demos ... or temporary full use

if i had a band going and did many performances
i would burn 10.000 cd`s with examples or medleys of my music and this would cost me 10.000 euro
i would send it around making sure people at discotheques and festivals would get it.
i would put a stamp on it saying - you are allowed to copy this cd as much as you like and spread it among friends.

now if 10 % of these people who received my free cd would buy my 20 dollar cd (which is 1000 people of the 10.000) i will win the investment back.

i would only do that if i would be very very very good

[John Vulich]

Excerpt from an interview with Ernst Nathorst-Boos one of the founders of Propellerhead Software...

Sound on Sound - Man Of Reason

"No one really knows what the software issue is all about", adds Ernst. "I can illustrate with a story. I have three children; the oldest is 16. When Napster arrived, he started downloading songs like crazy. And he got to find out about so many new bands that he never heard about, which also meant that he started buying CDs like a lunatic. Then Napster disappeared, and he stopped buying as many records as he used to, because where is his source now? There's the radio, but he's not interested in the music that's played in the radio. And MTV? No! I'm saying that I can understand what the record industry is saying, but I can also show examples of the opposite. I think it's the same thing with software piracy. It is a major problem for us, but no one actually knows the mechanisms behind it. No one knows how many of these people bought the program who wouldn't actually have been your customers otherwise."

This, from a man who is the direct victim of software piracy and (IMO) more qualified than most of us here to make an enlightened comment on the subject!

[herodotus]

Gosh guys, I really didn't want to open up the whole software piracy can of worms. Personal feelings aside, it seems disrespectful to our hosts.

But as a musician, I think that this is a legitimate debate. I hate the major labels: They screw artists and homogenize our musical culture.

I really try never to buy major label releases if I can avoid it.

[liars&ashes]

----Someone mentioned the crappy sound quality of downloaded mp3's burned to cds,and that is a somewhat legit complaint,however,most crappy sounding mp3's are because of user error,people not knowing what they're doing really when they rip things to mp3 and/or using freebee programs to do it. And the irnoic twist on that scenario,Itunes is selling mp3's to people at more or less full price,lesser quality,much less distribution price/costs,nearly the same retail price,Walmart would be proud....

Jeff

[Sepheritoh]

Everytime I see a thread on this topic I fall in the trap of getting into the fight. Personally I believe that making copies of music is the same as making copies of software.

It must be the musician's choice if he / she want to allow people to download / copy the music. If a musician is happy with people downloading the music and thereby get inticed into buying the CD, it is all part of that musician's marketing strategy and that is all cool by me.

If the musician did not specifically gave permission and somebody else made the copy with the purpose of advertisng and selling the music for profit of the musician him/her self, then, even if it is technically illigal, I can not see any imoral about it. If somebody takes somebody else's music and make any profit for him / herself (bootlegs etc) then I do have a serious problem with it. If somebody emails the musician and say "hey it is a great track, do you mind if I try something and sing over it" it is cool. If that person go and sell the track now without specifically asking the musician and without payiing the royalties, it is not cool.

[apflaum]

i dont make nearly enough money, never have yet, im only 21, still not done with school even. Anyways, i have a cd collection of over 500 cds. Ive spent around $1000 on music equipment. I own around 40 dvds.
at $12 a cd, and $15 a dvd (BEING VERY VERY GENROUS HERE) =
$6,000 + $600 + $1,000
that would equal $7,600
$7,600 in like 5-6 years, which is definatly more than my disposable income that i had during this time. PLUS I SHOULD HAVE ADDED THE FEW GRAND I HAVE SPENT ON VIDEO GAMES IN THE PAST HEHE!

Basically, i feel I am making the largest contribution possible to the industry. I have spent thousands to two seperate independent mail-order distribution/record label type companies. This is all i can do now. In the future i will prolly increase my spendings ten fold. So seriously f**k everyone else, im making the best possible effort available, why shouldnt i have everything possible available to me? I dont say this for physical things, but when it is purely digital, and as long as i am making MY contribution, the best I could regardless, how am i in the wrong?!?!

oh haha, i shoudl have counted video games, there goes another few grand into the "media spending" pile i included. Thats software, haha

[Omniphonix]

I think the purchasing of MP3s from big online music stores like iTunes and Napster is a good idea. As long as the music is delivered in a high quality recording with decent bit depth and it remains as portable as any other MP3. I don't like the ideas of some of these sites trying to impose DRM technologies on these files. People will still rip and share them anyway, why should I have to deal with the hassle (just like dongles and C/R copy protection)? What is really irritating, it doesn't seem there's much of a selection of underground dance music on these services yet. Can anyone get their stuff for sale on iTunes or Napster, or do they have to be signed to a label? Where do you guys go to buy MP3s? Anyone know of any good sites? The only ones I'm aware of, off the top of my head, are Release Records and Beatport.

[nuffink]

Because we've all lived through the era of tape, vinyl and cd we've always seen music itself as a commodity. It hasn’t always been this way. Maybe the p2p networks are decommodifying music. Perhaps musicians will have to revert to selling themselves as performers. Possibly.