Midi Editing - Sonar 4 or Cubase Sx 3

[knoob]

Hi,

I'm thinking of buying Cubase Sx3 or Sonar 4, which has the best midi editing features ?

thanks

[torhan]

Depends on what you "need." I can answer questions about Sonar only.

There is no 'best' -- only different.
Edit: Did you download their demos yet?

[knoob]

What about quantizing ?

I took a look into Sonar, i didn't like the thin velocity lanes, and i realized this product don't have input quantizing.

[bduffy]

As a former longtime-SONAR user for years (I started with Cakewalk Pro Audio 7!), I made the switch to Cubase. I'm not sure about the latest version of Sonar, but I found that Cubase had deeper MIDI editing features than Sonar. The Logical Editor is a rather amazing thing where you can save, recall and automate complex MIDI editing commands; I don't think Sonar has anything like this yet. Plus Cubase has right-click edits like, "Fixed Lengths" "Delete Doubles" "Delete Overlaps (mono/poly)" - I find these commands super-handy, and all this stuff I had to hand-clean in Sonar.

But the main reason I switched is because I found the VST Mixer and VST instruments more powerful then Sonar's setup. Also, at the time, you couldn't use ASIO drivers with Sonar-but I still find the VST engine more stable and smooth than Sonar's. No offense, Sonar users!!! Just MHO.

[torhan]

Plus Cubase has right-click edits like, "Fixed Lengths" "Delete Doubles" "Delete Overlaps (mono/poly)" - I find these commands super-handy, and all this stuff I had to hand-clean in Sonar.

Sonar has had CAL scripts which handle these situations.

But the main reason I switched is because I found the VST Mixer and VST instruments more powerful then Sonar's setup. Also, at the time, you couldn't use ASIO drivers with Sonar-but I still find the VST engine more stable and smooth than Sonar's. No offense, Sonar users!!! Just MHO.

VST instruments work fine for me (Crystal, etc.) with Sonar's VST Wrapper.

In any case, best to download both and ask specific questions.

I'm pretty sure midi editing for both have been discussed here before Do a forum search!
EDIT: Found this in a thread: http://www.digitalmusicdoctor.com/shootout/shootout.htm

[knoob]

thanks for the advices

the midi in-place on Cubase looks marvelous,

on the other hand i've just found that, on Sonar,

you can see notes and other events from one or more

midi tracks at the same time. still undecided ....

[bduffy]

...i've just found that, on Sonar,

you can see notes and other events from one or more

midi tracks at the same time. still undecided ....

Actually, you can do that in Cubase as well; just select more than one track, et voila!

Definitely try them both out, if possible.

[TeeLangSun]

thanks for the advices

the midi in-place on Cubase looks marvelous,

on the other hand i've just found that, on Sonar,

you can see notes and other events from one or more

midi tracks at the same time. still undecided ....

I've just learned recently that in Cubase you can not only see the notes of multiple midi tracks like in Sonar, but you can actually edit them as well. You can edit midi notes from several different midi parts/tracks all all in the same piano roll. An absolute necessity I found when using Stylus RMX. Still, there are many things about Sonar which I found to be superior to Cubase, and vice versa. You really do need try them both, if possible, and consider what is most important to you. Neither is clearly superior overall.

[advaya]

I've just learned recently that in Cubase you can not only see the notes of multiple midi tracks like in Sonar, but you can actually edit them as well. You can edit midi notes from several different midi parts/tracks all all in the same piano roll. An absolute necessity I found when using Stylus RMX. Still, there are many things about Sonar which I found to be superior to Cubase, and vice versa. You really do need try them both, if possible, and consider what is most important to you. Neither is clearly superior overall.

Yes... Nice feature that... I find it helpful when editing a melody line... I'll usually select both the chord progression track, and the melody track when editing. Reason being, I am hopeless at the keyboard, and this way, I can see if I accidentally played any 'sour' notes ontop of my chords (then edit as necessary). Heh... I tend to make that mistake quite frequently!

Dammit Jim... I'm a guitarist, not a pianist!

Cheers.

[mojkarma]

As owner of both programs (actually sonar3 and cubase sl2) may I add my two cents.

I think that Cubase is superior in terms of midi editing by far. Cakewalk didn't make any real improvements on the midi side for years.

Here is my list of nice tools or working methods that are not possible in Sonar:

1. Cubase has a split, mute tool. Invaluable when composing and arranging. You can split and mute individual notes.
2. In Cubase you can shorten/lenghten multiple selected notes. If you have a 8 finger megachord, in Cubase you can shorten/lenghten them at once.
3. You can see multiple controller lanes in Cubase (in Sonar only one). You can see velocity, aftertouch, pitchbend data all at once if you want and need to. You can also resize (unlike Sonar)the controller lane and make it bigger.
4. Notes in the pianoroll view can show you their value (notename like "c4", etc.). You don't have to look to the right to identify which note you are editing.
5. Whatever you do on the notes in the pianoroll view, a help tag appears over the cursor. You can see exactly what you are doing, how far you are moving something...
6. Cubase has (IMHO a fantastic tool) a infobar just above the pianoroll. Whenever you select a note the infobar shows you important data about the selected note (starttime, endtime, length, velocity). For example you can quickly change the velocity of a note by just moving the cursor over the velocity number in the infobar, click it and dragging up or down. You can of course double click and enter an exact value. You can also select multiple notes (for example your snare) and adjust the velocitiy in the infobar.
7. Not a feature but for me a big pluspoint over Sonar: in Cubase (like in any other host that I know or have tried) you don't need to draw a lasso exactly arround the things you want to select. When you draw a lasso, everything that gets touched by the lasso will be selected.
An example: if you have a long accord (in the pianoroll view) and you zoomd in so that you cannot see the start and and of the note. You can select the accord by "drawing" a line, starting from an empty space and drawing from up to down or vice versa. In sonar you would have to single select any note or to zoom out to be able to draw a lasso.
The same goes for selecting clips in the arrange view.
Many people think that this is not a big deal, but when you see how fast you can select items, you will miss it.
8. Cubase shows you the step input editor where it belongs: in the pianoroll view and not on the main page like Sonar. If you maximize your pianoroll screen, you will not see the step input editor.

I just want to add a few word about the comparison between the logical editor of Cubase and the so called CAL from Cakewalk/Sonar. Forget CAL. It can do some similar things like the logical editor of Cubase, but you are completely unable to change or edit cakewalks CALs.
I'm trying to be objective and not to put any host down, but I think that Sonar really needs a serious rework, not only on the midiside.

[popsych]

LOGIC

[knoob]

Yeh! I know Logic is has powerful midi features, but i'm PC user.

so far Cubase is winning...

[Stupid American Pig]

I say you should buy the one that you are most comfortable with, after extensive demo testing.

[oddbods finger]

As owner of both programs (actually sonar3 and cubase sl2) may I add my two cents.

I think that Cubase is superior in terms of midi editing by far. Cakewalk didn't make any real improvements on the midi side for years.

Here is my list of nice tools or working methods that are not possible in Sonar:

1. Cubase has a split, mute tool. Invaluable when composing and arranging. You can split and mute individual notes.
2. In Cubase you can shorten/lenghten multiple selected notes. If you have a 8 finger megachord, in Cubase you can shorten/lenghten them at once.
3. You can see multiple controller lanes in Cubase (in Sonar only one). You can see velocity, aftertouch, pitchbend data all at once if you want and need to. You can also resize (unlike Sonar)the controller lane and make it bigger.
4. Notes in the pianoroll view can show you their value (notename like "c4", etc.). You don't have to look to the right to identify which note you are editing.
5. Whatever you do on the notes in the pianoroll view, a help tag appears over the cursor. You can see exactly what you are doing, how far you are moving something...
6. Cubase has (IMHO a fantastic tool) a infobar just above the pianoroll. Whenever you select a note the infobar shows you important data about the selected note (starttime, endtime, length, velocity). For example you can quickly change the velocity of a note by just moving the cursor over the velocity number in the infobar, click it and dragging up or down. You can of course double click and enter an exact value. You can also select multiple notes (for example your snare) and adjust the velocitiy in the infobar.
7. Not a feature but for me a big pluspoint over Sonar: in Cubase (like in any other host that I know or have tried) you don't need to draw a lasso exactly arround the things you want to select. When you draw a lasso, everything that gets touched by the lasso will be selected.
An example: if you have a long accord (in the pianoroll view) and you zoomd in so that you cannot see the start and and of the note. You can select the accord by "drawing" a line, starting from an empty space and drawing from up to down or vice versa. In sonar you would have to single select any note or to zoom out to be able to draw a lasso.
The same goes for selecting clips in the arrange view.
Many people think that this is not a big deal, but when you see how fast you can select items, you will miss it.
8. Cubase shows you the step input editor where it belongs: in the pianoroll view and not on the main page like Sonar. If you maximize your pianoroll screen, you will not see the step input editor.

I just want to add a few word about the comparison between the logical editor of Cubase and the so called CAL from Cakewalk/Sonar. Forget CAL. It can do some similar things like the logical editor of Cubase, but you are completely unable to change or edit cakewalks CALs.
I'm trying to be objective and not to put any host down, but I think that Sonar really needs a serious rework, not only on the midiside.

I'm relatively new to soft midi sequencing (with Sonar 4) having been used to (and still own) a Yamaha RS7000.

I must confess to being quite disappointed by the shortcomings of some Midi editing options in Sonar...e.g. adjusting the velocity of a group of notes by dragging - which can't be done!

+ those set out in Mojkarma's post above.

[Stupid American Pig]

again it comes down to trying software before plunking down yer cash for it...