Music, talent or skill?

[WoJ]

My piano teacher keeps saying "your talented but you need to keep working" and other people have told me this, but how much of your composition and playing is based on talent? Is it that some people are just naturaly better, or becasue they have been raised a certain way, or is it a case of needing talent in order to utilise skill/learning? Is it a waste if people have tried over and over but fail to reach a goal?

I rarly practice at the piano, i suppose that why i dont progress as fast as i know i can but i seem to be able to come up with a tune or a structure or improvise no problem. Some people who have far higher grades than me and who have been playing for longer on certain instruments tho find it impossible to improvise which i find difficult to believe because to me it is "easy".

I dont know whats best, not being able to do something and having to work hard for a reward or being able to do something straight off but hate having to learn.

Perfect pitch as an example: Some people who have been involved in music for a while have this gift, while others are seemingly born with it and yet it is still possible to teach yourself perfect pitch over time, which is better? and is anything possible regardless of whether or not you have an "inate" starting base.

What are your opinions on talent vs practice?

WoJ

[Cyprus]

Nothing can replace talent, I don't care what you're doing, whether it's in sports or whether it's in music or art or whatever the case may be. Some people are just naturally built to be better in certain things, we're not all born on a level playing field.

But at the same time talent can't replace hard work. The greatest musicians in the world are that way because of talent and a lot of hard work.

I'm the same way you are, give me an instrument and I'll make something good out of it. I've always been that way without really being exposed to anything more than the radio as I was younger. It just so happens that my mom has a great sense of rhythm as well. I couldn't do anything out of rhythm if I tried.

But my problem is that I lack a good work ethic. I've never actually practiced a day in my life, when I play the piano or the guitar I do it because I thoroughly enjoy playing, not because I'm trying to reach some ultimate goal. It just so happens I play guitar for probably an average of over an hour a day because I enjoy it so much. So I am good at what I do, but I'll never reach the top without a good work ethic.

But without that talent I don't care if you practice 14 hours a day, in something like music you're just not going to be good at it without that foundation.

[WoJ]

Yea i can see your point, I'm currently studying for my jazz piano grades and they are soo difficult, i just had an exam this morning but i know i wont be able to pass em all if i dont get down to some hard work. Jazz is all theory these days, such a complex thing , and its contantly shifting so its hard not to fall "behind the times" as it were.

I def know what u mean about the guitar thing i have an acoustic always lying around in my room and every 10 mins i'm picking it up and havin a little jam, its so adictive .

WoJ

[Timfonie]

Nature versus nurture?

No. As usual it's nature combined with nurture.

Think of a rubber cord that can be stretched to a certain limit. The harder you pull, the longer it gets. Also the longer it is when it isn't pulled at, the longer it can possibly get.

You are born, just like me, with genes favouring improvising and composing music. Others may be predisponed to become proficient players from sheet music. And then some lucky people have the talent to become good at both.

You may attain a level without much practice where others may have to work very hard for. Yet you will miss the chance to grow to your full musical potential if you 'don't work for it'. Of course you are not obliged to work hard. There's more in life than just music.

Some years ago I trained three times a week to become a better athlete at the 800 and 1500 meter running. However I was focussed too much on the results (=seconds, personal records) and I knew I would never be able to reasonably compete with others in regional competitions, even if I would train every day (which I didn't want to). The result: I chose to run only twice a week in the forest for pleasure.

About where do you think your limits are? How far can your cord be streched? (I know this is a hard,if not impossible to answer question). Do you want to work hard to grow? The harder you work the more you are likely to grow (unless you overstrain yourself). Just don't think that working hard enough will get you anywhere you want. But do believe hard work will let you grow a lot.

[WoJ]

Thx for sharin guys, i just feel sorry for children who are pressured into learning a music instrument at a very young age, no doubt it will help them later on, but some children are forced to practice which is just unfair to the child.

Anywho,

I suppose at the moment for me the crucial thing is to prioritise, i'm currently taking my A.S. levels but i'm not sure where i'm aiming to go after i have finshed my A levels, i will try to concentrate on my theory grades and music tech A lvl so fingers crossed all my planned instrumental grades + theory grades will push my options up so i have some sort of choice where i want to go after school.

WoJ

[jdahlb]

Oh, f**k it. I'd just written a very deep, intelligent and long reply when my PC decided to switch off. That's what you get for being on a stupid 933MHz Celeron laptop.

Anyway. I agree with Timfonie and Cyprus. You can get far with persistance, but you won't be able to get all the way without some talent. I guess that was the essence of my long post that no-one will ever read.


J.

[Lunatique]

When I was a kid, I begged my mother to let me take piano lessons. She refused, and I had no access to a piano, so that dream ended. When I was a teenager, I begged my mother to let me take piano lessons again. She refused, and I decided to take matters into my own hands when I was 18--I saved up and bought a Roland D-10, with a 2 track midi sequencer, and started composing/arranging music on my own.

Over the years, I always wished I had the chance to start at a young age. Not having the foundation is a severe handicap. I tried to force myself to go and take piano lessons or read music fluently as an adult, but it's really hard to force yourself to go back and crawl slowly when you have alredy been composing/arranging for so many years by ear. Now, 14 years later, I'm still composing/arranging by ear, and I still can't read music fluently, or play the piano better than a trained child.

I would kill to have parents that forced me to learn the piano as a child.

[hao nao]

it's talent vs. laziness and dissipation that you have to watch out for

talent with craft and with steady application will get you farther

although many cats get by just fine never aspiring to be anything more than a cat (that we know of)

even so, do not undervalue what comes easily to you

[WoJ]

True, but i was talking about realy forcfull type parents who didnt make you play because they wanted the best for you, they only wanted you to go far so they could be proud etc, its amazing these kids at music colleges practicing all day long, arg maybe i just have something against young kids playing rachmaninov .

Luckily i'm fortunate to have parents that support me in my music, it was only realy when i got into a band with my guitar playing that i actualy started to "play" and my parents went to see me play at gig's and helped me get to practices etc. I hated classical piano lesson's and must have gone through 3 teachers at least, then i discovered jazz .

WoJ

[hao nao]

cool to hear about your parents' support and I agree about parents who cultivate hothouse prodigies for their own pride

I was really responding to the original post, and given the choice of "talent vs. skill" vs. "talent vs. practice" and other questions in the same salad, I answered it my own way

[WoJ]

Ah right, k

Was interesting to hear all your opinions, thx

WoJ

[hao nao]

your next assignment is to do a Neil Young cover using only quartal chords

j/k

[WoJ]

No problem, just let me fly to the moon first...

Hey, that would be a good theme for the music cafe competition .

WoJ

[Steven West]

It's tough on all corners I agree. I want to play pop/country/alternative music - but with a cheap guitar and a beat box, everyone says "Not bad, sounds like New Order - as in you better ORDER a NEW music teacher!" But then if I make a bunch of racket with my axe and insane beats, everyone says 'Brilliant!'...

But even if I invested in a primo studio and gear, and got every Chris Issak song down to a T and improved on them for my own style till I was happy and confident... People would say "Man, this sounds like Jerry Garcia trying to play hard rock?", "The worst Styx tribute band EVER!" and so on. Take every song and play them backwards at 16rpm - "Oh man, this is so trippy! Turn that guitar up!"...

Go figure? Welcome to Rock N' Roll.

[herodotus]

I think musical greatness (whatever it might be) requires NEED. One has to NEED to do music. One can talk about discipline all day, but if there is no NEED, the discipline will degenerate into "doing it because they told me to".

I always think of Frank Zappa. The guy just had to do his stuff. There was no choice, no 'personal goals'. The guy just had to make music. Maybe I am over generalizing,

Oh, well...time to put the headphones back on.