hi
As a WS owner I'm interested in this new synth.
Are they many velocity layers in the soundsets for that "giga" realism ?
If not, what method is used for creating realism (especially in "traditional" instruments) ?
BC
MS soundsets - velocity layered ?
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- KVRian
- 966 posts since 28 Sep, 2002 from UK
If God did exist (and he doesn't) he would answer to the name of Maurizio
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Hi
There is some neat things that can be done with the Samples and Sets being layered in ways to better simulate real guitars on the computer, yes.
Ellis Breen (griels) is really the guy to answer this as he has started doing big experiments with the Guitars and Layering.
Also a few other guys here have too.
In this Initial package it is mostly just the E Guitars and Bass and a Nylon set with workable Layers. But Not really traditional multi velocity Samples so to speak in here because we purposely put the layers in seperate soundsets.
Like the Nylon. Has a Plain layer and the top note slide but we kept seperate for more usability.
Thats the thing with ManyStation ... you blend the layers velocity etc in the GUI and ....
Really ... cmon ... we could only put so much in at this price ... Ask the guys who are running so far... Almost all have said This is unheard of Quality for this kind of price.
Also our ManyMore addons will allow us to Go to Much more Depth!
That is the Plan. This is the Start and a Great start at that!
But
that said
Some Guitars (The Nice E Strat) can have incredible velocity layer work using a Blend of a few soundsets
and the Mod Matrix and use of all the Mod sources and destinations to acheive what you want. Manual has a Great Strat patch describing this too. Guys who have ManyStation, Look at the Patch ST Rat, it is in the tutorial Bank..(If your Machine can load that Baby ... i think it is a 250 meg 4 layer Strat patch)... and see what i mean. There is alot going on there! And you can Read about how it is done by Simon Cann in the manual. He descibes it.
Some of the Bass show this too and griels has some Big Guitar Patches on the Go not yet released. He has used Different methods and Layers than Simon has, to the same Guitars to get other Cool results.
Que
Ellis ...
He knows best!!
Paul
There is some neat things that can be done with the Samples and Sets being layered in ways to better simulate real guitars on the computer, yes.
Ellis Breen (griels) is really the guy to answer this as he has started doing big experiments with the Guitars and Layering.
Also a few other guys here have too.
In this Initial package it is mostly just the E Guitars and Bass and a Nylon set with workable Layers. But Not really traditional multi velocity Samples so to speak in here because we purposely put the layers in seperate soundsets.
Like the Nylon. Has a Plain layer and the top note slide but we kept seperate for more usability.
Thats the thing with ManyStation ... you blend the layers velocity etc in the GUI and ....
Really ... cmon ... we could only put so much in at this price ... Ask the guys who are running so far... Almost all have said This is unheard of Quality for this kind of price.
Also our ManyMore addons will allow us to Go to Much more Depth!
That is the Plan. This is the Start and a Great start at that!
But
that said
Some Guitars (The Nice E Strat) can have incredible velocity layer work using a Blend of a few soundsets
and the Mod Matrix and use of all the Mod sources and destinations to acheive what you want. Manual has a Great Strat patch describing this too. Guys who have ManyStation, Look at the Patch ST Rat, it is in the tutorial Bank..(If your Machine can load that Baby ... i think it is a 250 meg 4 layer Strat patch)... and see what i mean. There is alot going on there! And you can Read about how it is done by Simon Cann in the manual. He descibes it.
Some of the Bass show this too and griels has some Big Guitar Patches on the Go not yet released. He has used Different methods and Layers than Simon has, to the same Guitars to get other Cool results.
Que
Ellis ...
He knows best!!
Paul
Last edited by manytone on Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- jaaathmaster
- 2690 posts since 1 Jun, 2001 from Marlow, S. Bucks, UK
Hi, yeah, I've been experimenting with complex filtering and layering of sounds to increase the versatility... I've used the following techniques:
1) Multilayering - I put the ac. guitar 'pick' samples on velocities 110 and higher for example
2) Velocity->LPF and Velocity->Amplitude modulation
3) Quasi-Formant modelling, to allow more realistic pitch bending... Like a sort of manual 'STRETCH'. Basically I held down a bunch of notes and swept each sound with bandpass filters to find the formants (the dominant frequencies). Then I notch filtered them out, and allowed this layer to be pitch bent. Finally I added another, quieter layer where I accentuated this formants with EQ, but allowed no pitch bend. Seems to work somewhat better than standard pitch bending, as the formants are preserved. And as the formants have been found manually, it can be a little less hit and miss than automated formant based pitch shifting.
4) Delayed vibrato - set up an env linked to LFO speed, in turn linked to oscillator fine tune.. Sounds best in conjunction with the previous technique.
Here's a preliminary bank I've developed using these ideas:
http://www.jugendzentrum.co.uk/thingus/grielsjaath2.rar
And here's a tune I did with them:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=995497
Hope that helps
1) Multilayering - I put the ac. guitar 'pick' samples on velocities 110 and higher for example
2) Velocity->LPF and Velocity->Amplitude modulation
3) Quasi-Formant modelling, to allow more realistic pitch bending... Like a sort of manual 'STRETCH'. Basically I held down a bunch of notes and swept each sound with bandpass filters to find the formants (the dominant frequencies). Then I notch filtered them out, and allowed this layer to be pitch bent. Finally I added another, quieter layer where I accentuated this formants with EQ, but allowed no pitch bend. Seems to work somewhat better than standard pitch bending, as the formants are preserved. And as the formants have been found manually, it can be a little less hit and miss than automated formant based pitch shifting.
4) Delayed vibrato - set up an env linked to LFO speed, in turn linked to oscillator fine tune.. Sounds best in conjunction with the previous technique.
Here's a preliminary bank I've developed using these ideas:
http://www.jugendzentrum.co.uk/thingus/grielsjaath2.rar
And here's a tune I did with them:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=995497
Hope that helps
Music with dinner is an insult both to the cook and the violinist.
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
This is Great Stuff for the Users Ellis.
Very cool ..
These are Very Nice Big Patches guys that Ellis has Posted above.
Make sure you have lots of Ram. These are XLpatches so lots of Ram needed.
They show perfect use of the Guitar sets.
The Bass Presets are already included in ManyStation (In the Instrument Bank with EB in title) but these Guitar Presets in this bank are not in the Product.. These are new Big Patches and the start of what i think is a griels jaath bank.
ALSO for those that do not Know.. YOU Need to unrar this and put the bank in your Banks folder
Thanks griels!
Also I will make this thread a Sticky for now as already there is Great info started in this thread for serious Programming tricks.
Is That all right with you Basic Channel?
Also If you did not yet...
Listen to that tune griels posted above WOW. Nice!
Thats all ManyStation !!
I know Simon Cann likes this Modulation stuff too
Maybe sometime he can add more tips here for us.
Thanks again Ellis
Paul
Very cool ..
These are Very Nice Big Patches guys that Ellis has Posted above.
Make sure you have lots of Ram. These are XLpatches so lots of Ram needed.
They show perfect use of the Guitar sets.
The Bass Presets are already included in ManyStation (In the Instrument Bank with EB in title) but these Guitar Presets in this bank are not in the Product.. These are new Big Patches and the start of what i think is a griels jaath bank.
ALSO for those that do not Know.. YOU Need to unrar this and put the bank in your Banks folder
Thanks griels!
Also I will make this thread a Sticky for now as already there is Great info started in this thread for serious Programming tricks.
Is That all right with you Basic Channel?
Also If you did not yet...
Listen to that tune griels posted above WOW. Nice!
Thats all ManyStation !!
I know Simon Cann likes this Modulation stuff too
Maybe sometime he can add more tips here for us.
Thanks again Ellis
Paul
Last edited by manytone on Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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- KVRist
- 153 posts since 29 Jun, 2003
Griels,
That soundbank is INSANE!
This has got to be put on the manytone site too! Incredibly Real... I love the Distorted Guitar (Patch 3)
Great work, keep it coming, I'm satisfied so far.
That soundbank is INSANE!
This has got to be put on the manytone site too! Incredibly Real... I love the Distorted Guitar (Patch 3)
Great work, keep it coming, I'm satisfied so far.
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- jaaathmaster
- 2690 posts since 1 Jun, 2001 from Marlow, S. Bucks, UK
Aww shucks, thanks!anopenscroll wrote:Griels,
That soundbank is INSANE!
This has got to be put on the manytone site too! Incredibly Real... I love the Distorted Guitar (Patch 3)
Great work, keep it coming, I'm satisfied so far.
I'll try and squeeze some more out of the other sample sets pronto
Music with dinner is an insult both to the cook and the violinist.
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- KVRAF
- 3345 posts since 8 Nov, 2003 from Amsterdam
wow. "This is unheard of Quality for this kind of price."
About the velocity layers, I read the manual about this: An example is the Spanish Guitar velocity preset, using a slide/hammer on as the high velocity sample. However that is not something that's useable for me (I don't want the effect and I haven't trained my fingers to play like that yet). But several layers (max 4?) for different velocities should be easy with all the high quality samples. Like everyone else, I'm still exploring, so maybe everything is there already but I just haven't found it yet.
I haven't tried griels' new bank yet, because I'm at work now (unbelievable but true), but it sounds really promising. Either as a free bank, or as a commercial bank
--HansM
About the velocity layers, I read the manual about this: An example is the Spanish Guitar velocity preset, using a slide/hammer on as the high velocity sample. However that is not something that's useable for me (I don't want the effect and I haven't trained my fingers to play like that yet). But several layers (max 4?) for different velocities should be easy with all the high quality samples. Like everyone else, I'm still exploring, so maybe everything is there already but I just haven't found it yet.
I haven't tried griels' new bank yet, because I'm at work now (unbelievable but true), but it sounds really promising. Either as a free bank, or as a commercial bank
--HansM
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 966 posts since 28 Sep, 2002 from UK
Thanks people - that's very helpful.
In addition, does the WS engine have velocity crossfades ?
In addition, does the WS engine have velocity crossfades ?
If God did exist (and he doesn't) he would answer to the name of Maurizio
-
- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Hi Hans
There is no real velocity layers so to speak, but rather they are different playing styles and pickings on the same Guitar, recorded in the same recording session. What you can do, like griels started here, Is stack them up and use the velocity setting on each layer to assign them to different velocity settings. Further use of the Mod Matrix and filters gives the notes more realism as you play.
Have a Look at griels bank and you will see what he has done with the guitars and Basses. He has made them sound a little more realistic by putting the Picked Strat and Fingered Strat together in layers with velocity to filters etc to achieve a Guitar that responds when you play it on the keyboard.
You may not like the Slide on the nylon ... But Man I Love it. It is a cool way just to add that extra touch of realism. I mentioned the manual to you before. The mod matrix velocity stuff is in Simons Tutorial. It will show how to apply some Velo tricks in the Matrix. Also study the various patches that use it.
You can also layer in the mute patches etc.
We will have more of this kind of stuff in some addons but...
The griels stuff is a Free Bank.
It will also be in the Users area once we have it up and running. Also griels said he might add to it
Hope that helps ... Just look at what griels did and read about it above to help understand the things that can be done to achieve more realistic results.
Thanks
Paul
There is no real velocity layers so to speak, but rather they are different playing styles and pickings on the same Guitar, recorded in the same recording session. What you can do, like griels started here, Is stack them up and use the velocity setting on each layer to assign them to different velocity settings. Further use of the Mod Matrix and filters gives the notes more realism as you play.
Have a Look at griels bank and you will see what he has done with the guitars and Basses. He has made them sound a little more realistic by putting the Picked Strat and Fingered Strat together in layers with velocity to filters etc to achieve a Guitar that responds when you play it on the keyboard.
You may not like the Slide on the nylon ... But Man I Love it. It is a cool way just to add that extra touch of realism. I mentioned the manual to you before. The mod matrix velocity stuff is in Simons Tutorial. It will show how to apply some Velo tricks in the Matrix. Also study the various patches that use it.
You can also layer in the mute patches etc.
We will have more of this kind of stuff in some addons but...
The griels stuff is a Free Bank.
It will also be in the Users area once we have it up and running. Also griels said he might add to it
Hope that helps ... Just look at what griels did and read about it above to help understand the things that can be done to achieve more realistic results.
Thanks
Paul
Last edited by manytone on Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Mod-ulator
- 2895 posts since 31 Oct, 2000 from "Where I'm to, There I'll be"
Oh Yeah.
Hans ... One of the first FREE addons will be a 24 bit new Multisampled layer for the Nylon Guitar in ManyStation (the one you used in your tune.)
It is a Mute Patch with Palm mutes that can be used on its own or layered in the lower velocities of the Nylon set. These samples are from the same recording session.
We will get them finished and up for free download once we get the Users Area going.
We "Might" have a few more Free sets from that Nylon Guitar too, besides the mute patch
Cheers
Paul
Hans ... One of the first FREE addons will be a 24 bit new Multisampled layer for the Nylon Guitar in ManyStation (the one you used in your tune.)
It is a Mute Patch with Palm mutes that can be used on its own or layered in the lower velocities of the Nylon set. These samples are from the same recording session.
We will get them finished and up for free download once we get the Users Area going.
We "Might" have a few more Free sets from that Nylon Guitar too, besides the mute patch
Cheers
Paul
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- KVRian
- 1305 posts since 30 Jan, 2004
Alright - basics from primarily a guitarist...
I don't have this instrument yet, but certainly "coming soon" - each "velocity" can (and I assumd does) have a different type of note for the same pitch? (And all I do is play it in my controller at a default level then change it in Sonar?)
And what exactly is the "slide" note(s)? Is it going between a certain number of frets? How does that work? This is my purchasing decision question...although not really, because I'm going to get it anyway, but at least it's my writing style - real guitar to programmed MIDI/Sampled gtr. (Clean Acoustic I am talking about - I have the dist. down with analog stuff.)
Thanks,
- The "other" Paul
I don't have this instrument yet, but certainly "coming soon" - each "velocity" can (and I assumd does) have a different type of note for the same pitch? (And all I do is play it in my controller at a default level then change it in Sonar?)
And what exactly is the "slide" note(s)? Is it going between a certain number of frets? How does that work? This is my purchasing decision question...although not really, because I'm going to get it anyway, but at least it's my writing style - real guitar to programmed MIDI/Sampled gtr. (Clean Acoustic I am talking about - I have the dist. down with analog stuff.)
Thanks,
- The "other" Paul
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- KVRAF
- 3345 posts since 8 Nov, 2003 from Amsterdam
Yes, you can define a couple of distinct samples for the same pitch, e.g. sample 1 for velocity 0-33, sample 2 for 34-66 (or even 20-50 to create overlap). You can use at least 4 (the oscillator layers in Manystation), but maybe even 6 (if you include the Wave-layers as well). Never tried that yet.
AFAIK the slided notes are in the samples, implying it's a set interval.
--HansM
AFAIK the slided notes are in the samples, implying it's a set interval.
--HansM
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- KVRist
- 482 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from West Sussex, UK
Hi Griels
These patches are really great.
Is there an easy way that I can use my Mod wheel for a sort of finger vibrato effect? I tried wiggling the pitch bend, but I'm worried I'll shake my controller to bits!
Alan
These patches are really great.
Is there an easy way that I can use my Mod wheel for a sort of finger vibrato effect? I tried wiggling the pitch bend, but I'm worried I'll shake my controller to bits!
Alan
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- jaaathmaster
- 2690 posts since 1 Jun, 2001 from Marlow, S. Bucks, UK
Sure, you need to link the mod wheel to an LFO which is linked in tern to the first two osc's fine tune... I'll see if I can have a shot at that soon.
Music with dinner is an insult both to the cook and the violinist.