The argument that started in vurts song thread thread

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
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This started in the music cafe with vurts "game cat mix", but it is getting out of control and so here we are.
shamann wrote:What vurt does, and often does well, also comes out of a fairly specific history, from the point which music could be recorded and saved in perpetuity, a point at which we can manipulate, dissect, and study any sound. His (or rather our) music is not of the "let me dazzle you with my googaws" variety, but rather microscopic. "Let me show you something I've heard. Let's try to hear old sound in a new way." It's as much about listening closer, as much about sound in its physical state, as it is about its humanized form and calculation. One point that often comes up in these discussions is that of authorial excellence, the "If that is music, then I'm not special" argument. And they are right, they aren't special, none of us are special. We simply are, everything else is just the result of some power struggle.
As always, shamann, well expressed and thought out.

But I wonder if it is rather too sweeping a statement.

I do believe that musical evolution is occurring at a rate that no theory can keep up with. And I also think that there are many different ways to look at the organization of sound. One of the things that few people seem to have noticed is that with the advent of recording technology (circa 1877) the nature of music was fundamentally changed. The definition of music has, since that advent, grown and changed with a positively protean ferocity. One wonders if the word "music" is elastic enough to keep up with this change. Any innovations in this regard would be welcome. To me at any rate.

But all that having been said, I have to say that some musicians do seem to be special. Without thinking for a second that western cultural values should dominate the world, is there really nothing special about the guitar playing of Robert Fripp as opposed to the playing of say, the guitarist who used to be in Creed?

After all, the former has spent countless hours developing a set of skills and (more recently) a pedagogy to transmit those skills (and the attendant personal disciplines) to others. He can do things that others simply can't do. Does he not accordingly deserve respect? Must any respect payed him (or others with comparable skills) involve harmful cultural prejudices? Obviously, if one adopts a completely relativist stance, nothing is "better than" anything else. But can such a stance be maintained consistantly? Would that not eventually lead us into a corner in which a really, really stupid pop song sung by Brittney Spears and Bach's "Art of Fugue" are 'neither better nor worse than the other, just different'?

Would not such a viewpoint be missing something rather important?

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Well, music should convey emotion, a feeling. It doesn't have to be deep, dramatic but it should 'do' something that affects the emotional state or intent of the creator otherwise it would be a meaningless experiment.

I think you can measure the skill of each performer or composer by the measure in which he or she succeeds at this meta-level.
"...Everything we see or seem is but a dream, within a dream."
MySpace site: http://www.myspace.com/MarcJX8P
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I think the word 'music' has lost it's context to a large degree. People make ill-formed assumptions that 'music' should carry a clear sense of direction and rythm while clearly they do not require such. Styles that have been evolving over time in genres like ambient/dark ambient are more exercises in manipulating a listener's mental state and sense of location, at least it is for me.

f**k the back beat.

I really don't consider what I do(and to a degree what vurt does) as music at all, and don't feel stigmatized to not fall under so used up and over-generalized an aegis.

I can tell you this about vurt's work. These are exercises as I said. These are scouting incursions into Enemy Territory in preperation for the Final Apocolypse. In other words, they're practice sessions, ya dickhead(CskaTorpedo), and he's merely sharing his results with people that are grateful of his inspirational work output.

:roll:

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I was kinda hoping the initial 'argument' was more of a flame war than it is.

:(
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together...." -Carl Zwanzig

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Well up your then... :x

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why don't you eat my asshole? f**k off.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together...." -Carl Zwanzig

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a piece of recorded music is just an artefact
5 twelve

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havran wrote:a piece of recorded music is just an artefact
no ...
it's a palimpset ...
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hmmm... I dont see the need to analyze in this much detail.

ART:

1 Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.


2 a The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
b. The study of these activities.
c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.

MUSIC:

The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.


I happen to feel that a lot of the ambient/soundscapey stuff doesnt exactly qualify as "music" per se BUT the good stuff is nonetheless very evocative and conjurs up elaborate story lines (at least to me), unknown and ambiguous emotions, and general feelings of hopelessness (just kidding). It falls under the general category of art, if I was forced to categorize it. Doesnt really matter though.

One of the great things about KVR IMO is that a lot of folks here seem to put bread on the table through other means besides music leaving them free to express themselves exactly as they envision without regards to what will sell/is acceptable etc etc. On the other hand it would be great if we COULD all make our living doing what we love but there is a price to pay, especially when your as deep a thinker as a lot of people on here are.

my 1/2 cent.
Not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good

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normal wrote:
havran wrote:a piece of recorded music is just an artefact
no ...
it's a palimpsest ...
hmmm ... even when it's written on the wind?
5 twelve

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soulkraka wrote:hmmm... I dont see the need to analyze in this much detail.
I so much agree :D although I appreciate the patience and thoughtfulness that some have shown
One of the great things about KVR IMO is that a lot of folks here seem to put bread on the table through other means besides music
that's a kind way of putting it, especially in cases like mine ;)
5 twelve

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Ok - just to make clear that I wasn't aware of that other thread and just thought this would be an interesting discussion about what music can be.
"...Everything we see or seem is but a dream, within a dream."
MySpace site: http://www.myspace.com/MarcJX8P
Virb: http://www.virb.com/marcjx8p

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normal wrote:
havran wrote:a piece of recorded music is just an artefact
no ...
it's a palimpset ...
Is a palimpsest not an artifact?

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herodotus wrote:
normal wrote:
havran wrote:a piece of recorded music is just an artefact
no ...
it's a palimpset ...
Is a palimpsest not an artifact?
never mess with the father of history ...
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