CSR reverb

[zai]

I don't know much about reverbs...how's CSR different than those found in, say, Logic pro 7's reverbs/spacedesigner, the expensive Altverb (??), or even IK's Roomverb 2?

Just want to learn a bit more about reverbs...and on how I could make use to it.

I'm hoping...hoping for a bundle deal that will pair T-Racks with CSR reverb when it comes out. Wishful thinking a little...just dreaming...that I could get a project from start to finish just using IK and SonicReality's products...that would be a dream setup.

Zai

P.S. what else am I missing?

[Squids]

First, "Room Verb" isn't an IK product, it is from Spin Audio.

Space Designer and AltiVerb are also excellent as is the one from Waves that also does convolution. CSR is different than those however. It is more of your "classic studio reverb" high end AMS/Lexicon/TC type piece. It is a digital reverb that gives you the sound and features of what would be a very expensive hardware piece. I don't want to say that it IS a Lexicon 480L but it has a rich character and some Lark-like features that are very close in my opinion. That's nice because I always wanted my own 480L or AMS reverb but coundn't justify the price for my own project studio and I am sure many other musicians are in that same boat. So, this covers that desire nicely!

There are so many great choices in software for different flavors of virtual outboard gear that I think it is really nice to be able to have a variety of them that sound different. A good convolution, a good high end digital verb and some others to choose from as well. It makes sense. Most great physical studios offer a variety of outboard gear to choose from so why would this be any different especially since the price is so many thousands less?

I do have a little surprise for you guys that I think you are going to like. But, I can't say anything just yet. You can tell I am dying to though. Let's say that I may have some exciting news within the next month or so. You WILL thank me for my vote on this decision. That's all I can say at the moment.

[zai]

Good things come to those who wait...but I'm "dying" to find out what's in store for us!

OK, I'm going to be the first one to THANK Squids...Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

A surprise that would make me happy...let's see, that happened last when my wife told me that we are expecting our second baby...is this going to be as big? Oh boy, can't wait....

List of things to get:

1. Miroslav
2. Studiophonik
3. CSR Reberb
4. ST2.1
5. "THE SURPRISE"...or is this going to be the first on my list? :p

Zai

[Rellik]

If I made a post asking for more info on the ST2.1 sounds update, would I be able to get lots of info, or is it still under wraps?

Anyway, coming back to the topic of the thread, it sounds like Philharmonik sounds really good through CSR! I mean, I am not possibly interested in CSR, even if there was a bundle with Philharmonik, but it does sound VERY good!

As for the surprise, I'm looking forward to hearing it as well if it's another expensive but superb thing-a-ma-bob, then I'll still be happy for everyone that it's so cool, even though I won't be buying it (I mean, I'm already asking for Philharmonik for my birthday... or more specifically, for 3 years' worth of birthdays so I won't exactly have any leeway after that, but it should be worth it)

[zai]

Philharmonik with CSR...that would be a good bundle deal...I wonder if that's the surprise.

Or get Philharmonik with CSR free...that would be a even bigger surprise!

Zai

[Squids]

My suprise wasn't yet another thing to buy... although we have THOSE surprises coming too of course! [/list]

[Rellik]

My suprise wasn't yet another thing to buy... although we have THOSE surprises coming too of course! [/list]

YES! now i'm excited!

[zai]

I thought...no GB for a while...but, keep them coming non the less!

Zai

[nexussynth]

Philharmonik with CSR...that would be a good bundle deal...I wonder if that's the surprise.

Or get Philharmonik with CSR free...that would be a even bigger surprise!

Zai

Now THAT would be something!

Really though, the reverb you employ in an orchestral mockup is at least 60% of the realism. I have heard GM orchestral arrangements run through 480Ls that sound really impressive.

I personally am not as impressed with convolution reverbs as they just don't produce reverb which has any natural 'animation'. Tails and ERs in convolution are static sounding in comparison to truly spectacular reverbs like the 480L and the TC-6000, etc. I used to have access to a 480 several years ago and I can tell you it makes a huge difference.

I have some excellent impulses I have collected over the years but even the Waves IR-1 doesn't sound nearly as impressive as those studio units.

I also have not heard that same animation in plugins like the Altiverb, though its a good plugin.

Just put the Waves 480XL impulses side-by-side with the real thing in a studio and one can imediately hear the difference. It lacks the 480's animation.

Real halls have animation, you can be sure.

Its my understanding that the top film composers use mostly 480Ls in their studios for orchestral work.

I was dissapointed when convolution took off a couple years ago because I think ultimately it is just a marketing gimic, like "imagine playing in Convent Garden" or "Abbey Road"!!! No way folks. It just ain't those places, sorry.

I guess squids must of felt the same way, because this is the ONLY new reverb which doesn't use convolution.

One can easily tell from the musikmesse demo that the CSR has those qualties. It sounds better to my ears than the release trails in EWQLSO Gold, which are there because the developers of that library knew that most people couldn't get their hands on a LEX or TC pro studio unit.

btw, the Spin Audio Roomverb 2 is a really excellent plug-in reverb but it still cannot sound like the big Lex...

[zai]

Squids was running Miroslav through the CSR in the SonicReality demo...but I guess I need to be there to hear the differences!

Zai

[zai]

Hi Squids,

If it's not too much to ask, can you run the demo one through CSR and one without? And post it as an mp3 so that I/we could hear a little of what CSR can do....

Thanks in advance!

Zai

[Squids]

If I was to bother to do that I would do it to show you how good it sounds even without the reverb. I did that often at the trade show demos. People would say, "Wow that sounds great but can I hear it dry?" and I'd say "Sure" and then they'd listen to me play it dry and say "Ahh that still sounds good!".

So, it is just different. The reverb is very important though for the "glue" and hugeness of it all. But, it is also nice to hear the purity of the instruments as they are (which do have some acoustic space to them already in this case).

As for reverb trail samples, I like the idea personally. But, it has some flaws. The biggest one is that the reverb trail is only from a particular moment of ending which occured at the recording time but is not done to the time when YOU release the sample. I mean, it can be TRIGGERED when you release but it isn't reverberating the LAST timbre you played, only the original one that was recorded. So, it is definitely a fun gimmick that I wouldn't hesitate to use (in fact, I may have been one of the first developers to do that trick using the real spring reverb decay of a Farfisa on Vintage Timetraveler back in 1997 on the Akai). I am all about tricks like that. However, the fact that not only does the trail not take into account the many OTHER places the note could end but it also doesn't take into account the sound of more than one note at a time going through ONE hall. So, instead it just adds up hall ambience which may sound nice but isn't necessarily going to give you the most realistic result. But, the bottom line on any of this is that if it sounds good then that's GOOD! That is what matters the most I think.

As for CSR, well, it sounds REALLY good! I didn't make it, btw. I just saw it for the first time shortly before Musik Messe and immediately got it! It makes complete sense to me and of course when I heard it I was floored. It's not that I don't like convolution. I REALLY do! It's totally cool and fun. But, it doesn't replace having other types of effects such as this I don't think.

[zai]

Pardon my inexperience...what's convolution?

Zai

[Squids]

Pardon my inexperience...what's convolution?

Zai

The answer is a bit convoluted.

Google these:

AltiVerb
Waves IR-1
Apple Space Designer

Or, I'll tell you a basic explanation. It is kind of like a sampling reverb. One captures what is called an "Impulse Response" from a particular acoustic space for example. This is done various ways but basically a noise burst or sine sweep in a hall for example is recorded and then that full spectrum reverb trail sample is then triggered by the convolution reverb and whatever you are playing through this reverb is run through a comb filter (similar to a high band vocoder I suppose) which shapes the reverb sample to give it the tonal character of the sound being run through it... or, at least that is what I THINK it is! I still don't even know how Television signals are transmitted and received so...

[nexussynth]

Pardon my inexperience...what's convolution?

Zai

I will just add to what squids said and say that all you need to know about it is the aforementioned lack of animation owing to the explanation squids made about not hearing the last note played. This is what robs it of it's animation and makes it a 'frozen' sounding ambience.

Not a bad thing as an effect but all this hoopla about convolution is so dissapointing as it deterred plugin developers from doing reverb the right way. CSR is a breath of fresh air and a return to sensible reverb.

I do wonder about the CPU hit it will make as opposed to convolution like the IR-1?