KVR Audio

Funkybot · Post by **Funkybot** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:19 pm

Ok, I just bought myself a lovely 1973 Rhodes Mark 1 73 in amazing shape. There's no corrosion whatsover inside or outside, and everything works like a charm. In fact, a few different guys at the Guitar Center (including a customer who was just amazing on this thing and annoyed I already decided to buy it) all said it was probably the best playing Rhodes they've ever played on/come across. The only even remotely unpristine thing about this beast is that a few keys sound a bit quieter than others, but even that just sounds lovely and adds character if you ask me.

Now, I'd love to sample it and make a nice large library out of it to make available as freeware, but I have no patience for sample editing whatsoever. Would anyone be willing to take raw wave files and edit them to make a sampleset for something like Giga or Kontakt, etc? I'd ideally prefer one of the more popular formats so that this would have the widest range of compatibility amongst the different soft samplers.

I've got a fantastic Grace 101, which is considered to be one of the most transparant pre's around, and would just idealy like to sample the Rhodes directly into the Hi-Z input, this way if people wanted to run it through an amp sim or anything they could and I'd be capturing as pure as sound as possible. I'm also thinking the Bass Boost knob on the Rhodes should be set to 5 (the halfway point) during the recording, but if anyone has any reasons why it should be anything else feel free to let me know.

Now if someone is down, should I sample every key? Every other? How many velocities would you be willing to deal with? Do you also want sustain pedal samples? I don't feel like sampling the release noise, so I think this library (if it ever happens) would just have to do without that. Also what samplerate would you like? Should I start at 88.2 (perhaps even 96) and convert to 44.1, or should I just keep it at 44.1?

If anyone's interested feel free to respond here, PM me, or e-mail me at [my kvr username]@gmail.com. This is really just about me wanting to share, but not having the patience to build a really large library. Also, and perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here, if anyone would be interested in hosting a large sample set like this, I imagine we'd need that as well.

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:20 pm

I'd be interested in doing it

Mine would be in Akai S5/6000 (which is quite a large user base AND this format is supported by many s/w samplers AND I have various ways to convert to other formats anyway).

Technical details:

* Full length sample for every note preferably
* 44.1kHz/16-bit WAV - anything else would be total overkill for this sound whose upper frequency doesn't extend much above 10kHz anyway
* Different velocities would be good but not essential
* Through your pre-amp might be a nice touch

The only potential problem I see is hosting it - it's gonna be a big file and...

A) Not sure how many people will want to download such a big instrument
B) Bandwidth can be a killer (as I can testify) and should the thing prove popular, it could be the death of a website!

That said, there are ways to overcome this and many solutions exist.

Put it this way, I am happy to do the sampling work to knock it into shape and produce an authentic sampled version of the thing. Your Rhodes would be being done by possibly on of the most experienced people in the sampling business and I have much experience of vintage keys like this (see my website) so it would be in good hands.

What happens after that with regard to the technicalities of hosting it at a site remains to be seen.

But yes - in short.... I am up for it.

Cheers,

Steve

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:31 pm

Ooooops!

Sorry about that.

I have terrible trouble with KVR....dog slow here. My reply kept stalling/hanging so I copped out and tried again... and again... and again...seems they all got through.

Dunnow what it is with KVR but it gives me so much browser jip unlike ANY other site/forum

Sorry!

Steve

Funkybot · Post by **Funkybot** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:00 pm

Hey Hollowsun, I know it would be really big, but I'd like to do quite a few different velocities for each key if possible, but question: would the pedal down samples also be overkill? Since you're volunteering your help, I'll let you decide. And yeah, I can see hosting as being a huge issue (but perhaps that could be addressed at a later point). Also, Akai S5/6000 format sounds great as it seems just about every sampler can import it without issue. I'm well aware of your sampling skills and am psyched that you would agree take part in this. I really just want to see a free Rhodes library that can compete with the large ones on some level, and also just have more options out there for people who can't get enough Rhodes sounds (like myself).

So how about three velocities pedal up (I'm not the worlds most amazing keyboard player so I'll probably do like five hits on each key and let you pick the best ones), then let me know if you want me to do the pedal down samples as well. Also let me know how you want me to get the .wav file to you (e-mail, etc.), my DSL connection should be up and running within the week and I could probably bang out the raw samples within a day or two after work and get these to you by the end of the week at the worst.

griels · Post by **griels** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:18 pm

Wow, sounds great, but I'd urge you to reconsider doing release samples... They add so much to the sound of a Rhodes in my view.

Kudos for considering giving your sampleset away for free in any case

marce · Post by **marce** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:22 pm

You can contact to learjeff. He has sampled his own Rhodes with good succes and is a very helpfull guy to ask about the topic.
There you can find his sampling project:
http://learjeff.com/sf/sf.html

M'Snah · Post by **M'Snah** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:23 am

Re: bandwidth: Maybe create a 'light' version that's downloadable without killing the website (if it's the success it should be) and a 'full' version (as you and hollowsun discussed above) that's paid? Doesn't need to be expensive, but enough to cover bandwidth (or CD). That also helps to stop downloaders who will take it just because it's available...

metalsvinet · Post by **metalsvinet** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:33 am

hollowsun wrote: A) Not sure how many people will want to download such a big instrument

griels wrote:Wow, sounds great, but I'd urge you to reconsider doing release samples... They add so much to the sound of a Rhodes in my view.

Release samples would be excellent!

fr4ncesco · Post by **fr4ncesco** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:09 am

hollowsun wrote: * Different velocities would be good but not essential

Steve, why is this not essential for you?
Are you saying that it could be enough to feature the velocity>amp/filter modulation with the base samples?

ciao
Francesco

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:46 am

Funkybot wrote:So how about three velocities pedal up (I'm not the worlds most amazing keyboard player so I'll probably do like five hits on each key and let you pick the best ones)

Ok.

Frankly, I am not sure that level of detail is required for the Rhodes sound but I guess it would be better to have more than is needed, even if I end up just using two samples per note.

Funkybot wrote:then let me know if you want me to do the pedal down samples as well.

I don't believe that there is any need for pedal down samples. Simply record each note full length - when played normally, the sampler's envelopes will shut down the sound at note-off but when the sustain pedal is down, the samples' natural decay will be heard. This is standard practice (I did it with my CP70 CD). Pedal sustain samples (in my opinion/experience) add little or nothing to a sound (especially in the context of a mix) and simply contribute to the bloatware we complain about!

Funkybot wrote:Also let me know how you want me to get the .wav file to you (e-mail, etc.), my DSL connection should be up and running within the week and I could probably bang out the raw samples within a day or two after work and get these to you by the end of the week at the worst.

Email's a possibility but you might find that there's a limit to the file size you can send (I don't think there's a limit to what I can receive).

To be honest, though, there's no mad rush for this and a CD would be as good a delivery medium as anything. It would only add a short delay to proceedings.

What would be a good idea, however, is if you could do a few 'test' samples for me to check. Not that I doubt your recording practices but it would be a shame for you to go through all this and deliver them to me only to discover that there's some problem.

Perhaps the first stage of this exercise could be to record G of every octave at a few velocities and email them to me. I can then make a quick test program to check the validity of the samples, etc. (and if it works out, it could also serve as an interesting 'taster' for people here to hear what's in store!)

What I would prefer, however, is a separate WAV for each note/sample rather than G1, G2, G3, G4, G5, G6 in one big file where all the individual samples have to be extracted. The latter is certainly possible but will slow things down.

It would also be useful if the samples are sensibly named so that I know what I am dealing with. The names don't need to be elaborate (like 'Fender Rhodes G1 Soft 1' or whatever) - 'G1 1', 'G1 2', 'G1 3', 'G2 1', 'G2 2', 'G2 3', etc., would be sufficient for my purposes. Believe me, 'reverse engineering' other people's samples naming conventions can be quite an overhead so something sensible should be used from day 1!!

I am not trying to be an awkward bugger - just trying to make the whole process easier for you and I.

I expect your first samples on my desk tomorrow morning

Steve

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:49 am

griels wrote:Wow, sounds great, but I'd urge you to reconsider doing release samples... They add so much to the sound of a Rhodes in my view.

Agreed. Let's get the basics down first - we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Steve

M'Snah · Post by **M'Snah** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:55 am

great thread... a look into the mind of a respected sampler

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:03 am

M'Snah wrote:Re: bandwidth: Maybe create a 'light' version that's downloadable without killing the website (if it's the success it should be) and a 'full' version (as you and hollowsun discussed above) that's paid? Doesn't need to be expensive, but enough to cover bandwidth (or CD). That also helps to stop downloaders who will take it just because it's available...

Ha!

I was going to suggest exactly that.

I think a two velocity version at every minor third would be more than sufficient for a 'freebie'. The 'full' version (as you suggest) could be a payware product at a cost suitable to cover costs (Funkybot's and my time - and his investment - CD, packaging and postage costs).

I would like to sell it as the 'Definitive Rhodes' to accompany my 'Definitive CP70'.

But this is something for me to discuss with Funkybot in private I think.

Steve

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:04 am

M'Snah wrote:a look into the mind of a respected sampler

Jeeez... you really do not want to go there

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:49 am

I would suggest that you sample at 44.1/24 bit.

The thing you want to minimise is noise and 24 bits will give you better quality at the quietest velocity levels and on long decays. Of course you need a clean signal to start with.

If Hollowsun needs 16 bit for Akai - surely a dying breed of machine in 2005 - then you could just batch convert with dither to generate the 16 bit set.

My New Rhodes: Anyone Down for a Large Free Sampleset?