Since I started using Abelton Live I became aware of one of the program's limitation:
it cannot automate any vst parameters that come after the 128th parameter. So if cutoff and resonance is listed 133 and 134 in your plugins parameter list, you cannot map it to a knob, nor edit their function curves. Many plugins have more than 128 parameters, and important ones are out of reach....
...anyway I complained about that, not to kill time but because I cannot control the vsti I want to use....
..this is the response I got from Ableton concerning this:
"
2) Parameter Automation Limitation.
All major host introduced quite recently automations for more than 128 parameters. (....)We do not advertise automation of a complete set of VST parameter on our box. Neither is parameter automation a attribute of a complete VST host. Many VST hosts don't support parameter automation at all. (...)
"
I do not seem to remember any other host having such a limitation, anyway witch other host just recently
introduced automation for more than 128 parameters?
It seems I live on another planet as neiter FLstudio or Buzz or eXT have such a limitation but maybe you people can explain that to me.
Automation of only the first 128 vst parameters?
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
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- KVRAF
- 3944 posts since 7 May, 2004 from behind his workbench
wow, which plugin has more than 128 parameters to automate? 
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
tons....sonicfire wrote:wow, which plugin has more than 128 parameters to automate?
mostly sequenced synths and drums...
PM Minimal, Odo's SEEQ-1, are some I cannot use to their fullest.
And it is not because I want to automate ALL parameters, it is just because those I want are higer in the list.
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- KVRAF
- 3476 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from NE Ohio, USA
z3ta+ right off the top of my head.sonicfire wrote:wow, which plugin has more than 128 parameters to automate?
Doug
Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad - Spock, in "I, Mudd"
For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm
For a good time click http://www.belindabedekovic.com/video_fl_en.htm
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
I agree, but then it won't be 32 bits automation but stepped MIDI CC....haydxn wrote:just use eXT to get around itmake your own mappings.
...I can do that, but if eXT would make some parameters available to the host like a normal vst it would be nicer.
..but my point anyway is how come a 500$ app would have such a silly limitation? Is the vst spec say plugins have to have only 128 parameters?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
yeah but this... yeshaydxn wrote:i don't think that's anything that anyone here can answer.
"
anyway witch other host just recently
introduced automation for more than 128 parameters?
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..because I think they bullshitted me on this one. They ALL provide acces to all parameters (but I am not on a Mac, so I am asking just in case...)
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- KVRian
- 759 posts since 22 Mar, 2002 from fi
AFAIR some plugins (hmm i think ohmforce ones at least?) have a clever workaround for this - a configuration file where you can define the order and amount of automatable parameters so the ones you want will show on the list.
also AFAIR (my memory might be tricking me and it's quite late, sorry if i'm wrong) logic used to have a limitation like this before at least up to v5... i remember having to adjust some ohm configuration files like that to get to the parameters i wanted, otherwise i probably wouldn't even have thought about it.
i've had no problem with the limit in live so far but do have some plugins that have more parameters than 128 and there's always a possibility i need one that isn't among the first ones so the concern is there.
i remember that robert henke himself explained on the ableton forum that aside the inner workings of live, one of the bigger problems with removing the parameter limit is how they're laid out in UI: with midi learn in live you select the parameter you want to bind to a midi cc from a "popout" box with parameters and sliders in the track strip... and if there's like 200 parameters, the box will be insanely huge!
also AFAIR (my memory might be tricking me and it's quite late, sorry if i'm wrong) logic used to have a limitation like this before at least up to v5... i remember having to adjust some ohm configuration files like that to get to the parameters i wanted, otherwise i probably wouldn't even have thought about it.
i've had no problem with the limit in live so far but do have some plugins that have more parameters than 128 and there's always a possibility i need one that isn't among the first ones so the concern is there.
i remember that robert henke himself explained on the ableton forum that aside the inner workings of live, one of the bigger problems with removing the parameter limit is how they're laid out in UI: with midi learn in live you select the parameter you want to bind to a midi cc from a "popout" box with parameters and sliders in the track strip... and if there's like 200 parameters, the box will be insanely huge!
never stop loving music.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
yeah I know, but multiple pages of 128 params would not be a problem.zion15 wrote: with midi learn in live you select the parameter you want to bind to a midi cc from a "popout" box with parameters and sliders in the track strip... and if there's like 200 parameters, the box will be insanely huge!
..incredibly poor thinking, for such a nice app...
..anyway they will cure this with parameter filtering, but not for Live5 yet... (:
...witch may mean 2 years and 300$ upgrade fee
...you can always email them if you are concerned, they told me I was the only one caring
.
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- Banned
- 705 posts since 29 Jan, 2004
I really cannot believe such a nonsense from a "fourth party" host developer.waveriderarts wrote:Since I started using Abelton Live I became aware of one of the program's limitation:
it cannot automate any vst parameters that come after the 128th parameter. So if cutoff and resonance is listed 133 and 134 in your plugins parameter list, you cannot map it to a knob, nor edit their function curves. Many plugins have more than 128 parameters, and important ones are out of reach....
...anyway I complained about that, not to kill time but because I cannot control the vsti I want to use....
..this is the response I got from Ableton concerning this:
"
2) Parameter Automation Limitation.
All major host introduced quite recently automations for more than 128 parameters. (....)We do not advertise automation of a complete set of VST parameter on our box. Neither is parameter automation a attribute of a complete VST host. Many VST hosts don't support parameter automation at all. (...)
"
I do not seem to remember any other host having such a limitation, anyway witch other host just recently
introduced automation for more than 128 parameters?
It seems I live on another planet as neiter FLstudio or Buzz or eXT have such a limitation but maybe you people can explain that to me.
What an ignorance and arrogance!
Whatsoever, I think, they lost me now completely ...
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- KVRian
- 759 posts since 22 Mar, 2002 from fi
waveriderarts,
true - it's one of the shortcomings in the app. but otoh they are just starting to develop it towards a fully fledged DAW instead of just a flexible live instrument/seq hybrid it still was in version 3. they seem to add improvements at quite a steady pace, i've no doubt that they'll come up with a fix at some point.
oh, and for the record, i just checked quad frohmage in logic 6 pro. logic does recognize just the first 128 parameters too, quad frohm has over 600... so there's another daw that has had the limit recently. i don't know whether logic 7 supports more since i haven't done the update. i hope so!
true - it's one of the shortcomings in the app. but otoh they are just starting to develop it towards a fully fledged DAW instead of just a flexible live instrument/seq hybrid it still was in version 3. they seem to add improvements at quite a steady pace, i've no doubt that they'll come up with a fix at some point.
oh, and for the record, i just checked quad frohmage in logic 6 pro. logic does recognize just the first 128 parameters too, quad frohm has over 600... so there's another daw that has had the limit recently. i don't know whether logic 7 supports more since i haven't done the update. i hope so!
never stop loving music.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
thanks alot, this is the info I needed, so they meant Logic on Mac....zion15 wrote: oh, and for the record, i just checked quad frohmage in logic 6 pro. logic does recognize just the first 128 parameters too, quad frohm has over 600... so there's another daw that has had the limit recently. i don't know whether logic 7 supports more since i haven't done the update. i hope so!
...I know that otherwise Live is the bomb, and V5 will be incredible, but that 128 parameters limit was SO unexpected....
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
yeah, and that quote: (CROSS-POST)pustekuchen wrote: I really cannot believe such a nonsense from a "fourth party" host developer.
What an ignorance and arrogance!
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1) Self oscillating parameters of plug-ins.
Plug-ins that show a behaviour like that have a bug. Parameter that oscillate by itself shouldn't exist and I am sure there are very few professional plug-ins that show this behaviour. We can't and never will
guarantee compatibility with faulty or even all available plug-ins. I suggest you sort the few plug-ins that show this behaviour out or
complain to the plug-in producer.
"
This is dissing A LOT of vst plugins. (In case you do not know, they are a ton of vst with oscillating params) The exemple from Ohmforce is revealing: devs have to adapt to Ableton Live, the oppsite won't happen. A litte chilly.
If you combine the 2 problems, a lot of plugins either have uneditable parmeters or have parameters that self-oscillate, that means I should not use 50% of my plugins... witch most of them are free, I agree, but not junk.
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