Viper｜1.2.2 update with bugfixes and new skin

[keel]

Yeah, just like chk071 said! I personally found it annoying. It started to feel frustrating and in the end, even I love the sound, I ended up uninstalling Viper :/

[BONES]

Can you Adam make a skin, where you have all the possible knobs in single page, like Sylenth? I found Viper layout really, really unintuitive. It just breaks the flow, when you need to hit all the "osc", "filter", "lfo" tabs million times. All these in one page, would be super really nice and way more intuitive.

Here's the thing, though - it is on one page. The problem with most tabbed GUIs isn't that you can't reach all the controls at once, it's that you can't see all the values of the controls at once. With Viper, you can see all the important values all the time and that's what matters. In fact, it's really good because the tabs show the important parameters, which makes it even easier to see what's going on without all the clutter. You can get that quick overview of the settings and make adjustments accordingly. If you have to flip back and forth "a million times", then I'd suggest it's your workflow that needs fixing, not Viper's GUI.

I don't think the issue is really the tabs here. It's rather that having oscillators and filters (for example) on different tabs makes the operation less immediate.

How often do you need to make adjustments to the oscillators and filter together? Surely you do one, then the other 95% of the time?

My biggest problem with Viper is JP6K. It's so bloody good that I never feel like I need all the power of Viper, so I hardly ever use it. It's a really nice problem to have.

[BONES]

Another really good thing about Viper is its CPU efficiency. It is very well optimised. Not quite to the level of DUNE but still pretty good for what it is.

[EvilDragon]

Are you guys saying that the small knobs on the left side aren't tweakable? (Haven't tried the demo tbh.) If so, that's a bit of a bummer. If they'd be twekable that would sort out the immediacy issue to an extent...

[adamszabo]

No they are not tweakable and that is on purpose. This is one of those ideas that sounds good on paper but wouldnt really work in practice. So how would it work? You want to switch to the filter page, but you clicked on the small cutoff knob and changed it by accident when you set up a perfect value for your particular sound. When you click on the circle should it switch to that page or remain on the same page currently selected? As you can see it would be a mess. One would have to be careful not to click on certain areas of the tabs to not change stuff. Its better like this that one knows they can click anywhere in the tab to instantly jump to that page.

[EvilDragon]

I'd have it as an option, to be perfectly honest.

I'd click on the leftmost area where there are just section header labels to switch the tabs, personally. But also, you can most certainly discern between a click and a drag. If you just click, switch the tab, if you drag and you happen to be above a knob, well... drag it! And let's also mention that mousewheel exists, which could also be used to quickly adjust these knobs on the left side...

The importance of quickly changing filter cutoff while you're adjusting oscillators (or adjusting LFO rates when tweaking... whatever, really) shouldn't be underestimated.

This purposefully makes working with your plugin slower than it should be IMO.

[adamszabo]

I am guessing you dont look at this problem from a programmers point of view. Its not as easy as you think.

If you just click, switch the tab, if you drag and you happen to be above a knob, well... drag it!

Thats not how it works. To be able to drag a knob, you have to click it first. you cannot drag something without clicking. If you would drag the control it would still switch to that tab, and you are already there and you could just as well drag the real cutoff knob.

And let's also mention that mousewheel exists, which could also be used to quickly adjust these knobs on the left side...

No, mousewheel is slow. It is used for setting very precise values, and increments them by 1 value. you would have to sit there scrolling the mouse wheel. Its again faster to switch to that tab. On the other hand, if the scroll value would increase, then you wouldnt get accurate values, and defeats the purpose of the mousewheel.

The importance of quickly changing filter cutoff while you're adjusting oscillators (or adjusting LFO rates when tweaking... whatever, really) shouldn't be underestimated.

Then you would not like using the Virus Ti control plugin either, because Viper replicates the feel and usage of the Virus. You also have to go to different sections to edit values. Or would you like to change the filter cutoff when you click on the letter "R" in the Filter button up top?



I feel this is just nitpicking at this point, and its a non existent problem.

[EvilDragon]

Of course you can discern between a click and a drag. You do the tab switch on mouse UP, not mouse DOWN. Then it all works. I do some programming on the side (Surge) so I do have a "programmer's brain", but I'm also deeply interested in UX, so there you have it

And yes, I would not like using the Virus TI control plugin, either. But that is beside the discussion, since you went a bit further with design of Viper exactly by adding those small knobs to the tab area, which adds the nicety of being able to at a glance see what's roughly happening in the patch, but it also adds the annoyance that you cannot adjust those knobs. People see a knob, people wanna click on it and drag it, y'know.

You may say it's a nitpick, but I think it's an important matter. UX is all about nitpicking, anyways!

[adamszabo]

But no one said they are knobs, they only show the values at a glance. Anyway, I have way too much else on my hands to put so much effort into something thats only a problem for a couple of people, but thanks for the ideas anyway!

[EvilDragon]

If it looks like a knob, it smells like a knob... it is not just a value readout. Plenty of plugins have similarly styled widgets that are actively adjustable and not just a value readout.

Anyways, alright. I got my point across. It would be a valuable improvement, but it's your call in the end.

[chk071]

When I first saw the Viper GUI, I thought these control elements would be operable as well.

[adamszabo]

Again, its technically its very challenging. Even if I were to use the mouse UP message as suggested, it would still switch to that tab in the end. You cannot drag a knob without letting go of the mouse button when you are done, you cannot avoid the mouse UP. And then we are back to square one, that you ended up at that page in the interface. Maybe there is some crazy hack that can be done but I dont know. The only option I can think of is is the mousewheel, but it would be very slow and inefficient. Anyway, this idea that "I wont use viper because I cant see this knob or that knob" sounds so crazy to me. When I started out with music I was obsessed with the Virus and its sound, I would have killed for a synth like Viper back then. Getting the Virus sound for 89€ instead of 2000€ sounded like a no brainer to me. But then again, maybe the problem is me, in the end it was all about the music and the synth's sound, and not how many times I had to click the synth interface.

[EvilDragon]

How about Z-layers? If the knob is on top of the tab then the click wouldn't even pass through down to the tab control...

It's not always about the money, I'd say. It's also about expectations and good workflow. Much like chk071, I looked at Viper's GUI and thought to myself "oh cool, he one-upped TI Control plugin so you don't have to tab around all the time". Except that's not how it was, unfortunately But maybe I'm weird, dunno.

in the end it was all about the music and the synth's sound, and not how many times I had to click the synth interface.

Let me introduce you to Tranzistow.

[adamszabo]

Let me introduce you to Tranzistow.

I digress

[recursive one]

I've made a lot of patches for Viper (some of these even made it into the factory banks). I don't remember I ever thought "oh, I wish the icons in these small tabs on the left were tweakable". They are too small for precise adjustments anyway, but having them in sight is still useful as it gives a kind of rough patch overview - which I think is a noticeable improvement over Virus Control GUI.

TBH, I don't see how people are fine with Massive X or Spire GUIs but think the tabs in Viper are an obstacle.